Microsoft may be using the Windows 10 name for its upcoming software for smartphones, tablets, notebooks, desktops, and even the Xbox One. But not all versions of Windows 10 are created equal.

For instance if you run Windows 10 on a tablet with an 8 inch or larger screen you’ll be able to run both touch-friendly, tablet-style apps and also classic desktop Windows apps. But on smaller tablets or smartphones there will be no desktop mode.

win10 8 inch desktop

There are some exceptions: if you’ve already purchased a 7 inch Windows tablet like the HP Stream 7 or Toshiba Encore Mini, Microsoft’s Joe Belfiore says you’ll be able to upgrade to Windows 10 while retaining the ability to run desktop apps.

But if you buy a new device that ships with Windows 10 and you want access to the desktop, you’ll want to opt for a model with an 8 inch or larger screen.

Interestingly, Microsoft seems to be suggesting that the deciding factor for which devices run Windows 10 and which run Windows 10 for Mobile is screen size, and not the processor architecture.

That means Windows 10 for Mobile will likely run on smartphones with ARM-based processors and also on 7 inch tablets with ARM or Intel chips (and possibly on smartphones with Intel chips as well, although it’s not clear if any company is working on Windows Phones with Intel processors).

One of the main things that sets today’s Windows 8.1 tablets apart from tablets running Android or iOS is support for full desktop-style applications. Sure, it can be difficult to view and interact with apps on an 8 inch screen when they were designed for laptop or desktop-sized displays. But it’s nice to have the option… especially if you want to connect an external display to your tablet and treat it like a portable desktop PC.

It looks like you’ll still be able to do that with Windows 10 tablets… as long as they have 8 inch or larger displays.

via ZDNet

 

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93 replies on “Windows 10 for small tablets won’t support desktop apps (mostly)”

  1. I agree with Homer. If Windows 10 cannot natively run Win32 & .NET apps on a phone, then it’s time to move along. There is nothing here to see. If they are getting all lathered up about use the same source code can be compiled for multiple devices, we’ve been able to do that with Java since 1995.

  2. This is certainly a keen step towards the User Interface Enhanced Experience… just check no-windows-10-desktop-support-7inch-tablets in Tech Live Info (dot) com website… and other live technology informations

  3. I didn’t even know there were x86 windows tablets smaller than 8 inches.

  4. I tried out the 8″ Winbook when I was at Microcenter and thought that it was too small for the Windows 8.1 interface. When I get a windows tablet it will have a 10″ screen.

  5. This seems like it would be very confusing for someone shopping for a new tablet

  6. Ugh I almost dread reading these Windows 10 posts now. Its just a feeding frenzy for Microsoft haters.

  7. I can almost hear the words at the board meeting:
    Developer:”We’ve finally achieved the ability to use Windows 10 across all devices from Smart phones to powerful desktop PCs. Now all a user has to do is place his Smartphone or small tablet next to a wireless docking station and he can use it like a full size workstation.”
    Manager:”So essentially, users won’t need to purchase anything but a single device that already has Windows 10 built in, correct?”
    Developer:”Yes sir! Isn’t that great?”
    Manager:”No, you idiot! It’s NOT great! We’re in business to sell as much software and related hardware for our partners as possible. NOT to save money for the consumer OR make them more productive! You’re fired!.. Now which one of you brilliant developers can undo this mess pronto?”

    1. Although as noted, windows will be free for small devices. There’s being greedy, versus being so stupid as to completely kill your own market.

      (As an aside, interesting to note that apple fans praise apple for making so much money from they, whilst ms get moaned at by ppl for not giving away all their software for free.)

      1. Apple fans believe the more expensive something is, the better. I remember a time when I had a tutor student tell me his first generation iPod was better than my $20 clip mp3 player. I asked him what his iPod can do that my mp3 player can’t do. He didn’t reply.

      2. As an aside I wish that more devices shipped with a 64bit UEFI I like to use android sometimes and it’d be nice to have…

  8. I am confused here… so Microsoft on a tablet has a distinct advantage over Android in its ability to run full windows apps, and they are taking that away? Am I crazy here? OR IS THAT THE WORST IDEA EVER…

  9. Face it. Microsoft is Brain dead!!!! Though I’m a Windows user out of necessity and have defended them over Macs for a long time. Remember Millennium, Vista and Win 8. I got an 8 inch Win 8.1 because I heard you can boot to the desktop but the start button takes you back to the Playskool tiles. What’s the point of booting to the desktop? Shooting themselves in the foot is Microsoft’s hobby. I loved XP and used it on a 7 inch dual core touchscreen netbook and it was GREAT. I didn’t need tiles and I will never use the tiles. It’s clear that from here on out MS is hell-bent on being a silly facsimile of Android and iOS and will continue to disregard those of us who just want simple productivity without the childish social networking and games. It’s clear that from here on out we will have to use 3rd party software to configure and restore Windows to a productive OS. I wonder how long that will remain possible. I wonder how long I will be able to continue using WIndows. It’s becoming more of a burden as time goes by. The only reason I would even consider a smaller Windows device would BE FOR DESKTOP MODE. What RETARDS!!!

  10. The tweet says: “8” & up = “desktop” w/ win32 apps. < 8" = phones, phablets, sm tablets. No dsktp."

    He didn't say "no continuum". I think he was refering to what happens when using the device's built-in display. It doesn't make sense to let some under 8" devices have continuum and while keeping others with the same hardware specs from doing so.

  11. What a terrible decision. It’s in the OS, it’s an already installed feature, why wouldn’t they want people to use it? And honestly, all it takes to unlock such features is a registry hack, and it’s not like you can lock down that in Windows, so there, all they achieved is the future “desktop unlocker” apps in the Windows Store for $2 and the possible viruses and toolbars that come bundled with such toys…

  12. Im not really that disappointed, I have no intentions of buying a 7in Windows tablet.

    But on second thought, having an Intel powered 5.5in smartphone with desktop mode available sounds pretty cool.

    1. I personally like having a computer that I can use when i am mobile then at the end of the day hook to my HDTV to watch netflix/hulu… while Android and Mobile is nice, I still need full desktop apps for some tasks. I’d really love to have a phone like you mentioned. I am hoping the Asus Zenfone 2 isn’t locked down

      1. I’m not sure what you mean, about the Zenfone being locked down. What are you hoping to be able to do to it?

        1. for example i am hoping it isn’t locked into just running android giving the user more control over the OS they run on it.

          1. You can bet the bootloader well be locked, and it will be as unlockable as any other phone.

            If you are thinking of installing Windows on it, don’t waste your time. Some people have ran Windows 8 on other intel-powered android devices, and nothing works properly.

          2. Well, on unlocking, Asus has been know to make it easy to unlock their devices… even providing a utility app to make it easy on some occasions… So, depends on how much users demand the feature… and how well the device sells to warrant the support…

            Not that Asus support is all that great, it’s not, but they do have their moments from time to time…

            For running Windows… Keep in mind that up till now Intel has still been using phone optimized versions of their SoC for mobile devices… Unlike the tablet SoCs, the mobile SoCs are specifically intended to only run Android and also still use Imagination Inc PowerVR GPUs instead of Intel GMAs…

            However, if the OEM uses a tablet range SoC then it should be possible to install whatever OS you want as only the mobile phone SoC is really locked down…

            It helps if you’re using a device that the OEM sells with either Windows or Android… So long as it’s the same hardware then you can get the right drivers for it…

            The real problem, though, is the tablet range SoC aren’t as easy to squeeze into small devices as the Phone SoCs… but we’ll see with the upcoming Cherry Trail/Braswell updates… at least a large phablet may be possible, if not anything smaller…

    2. We used to have such a thing, it was called Windows Mobile. The claim was that mass market Joe Phoner couldn’t cope with the user interface.

  13. I understand that it would be quite difficult to use desktop applications on a 7-inch Windows tablet, but they should employ the dockable desktop on the smaller models powered by x86 chips. Then it makes sense to have the desktop.

    1. I would lean to think it’s Intel who doesn’t want this. Steals market from lower end desktops running Celerons and Pentiums.

      1. But desktops haven’t been doing so hot in the past few years

  14. This only means they amended their licensing structure to exclude anything smaller than 8″ in their <9" category, in order to retain some control over user experience in certain modes, and obviously to force the use of Windows Store apps on more devices, by taking away the ability to improvise use of older Windows compatible software, such as video players, games etc. forcing you to switch to modern Metro apps in order to get functionality out of your <8" device.
    But seeing as how it's windows I can't take any limitations seriously… I doubt they can do anything that can't/won't be undone in the first month after they launch.
    Here's a graph that shows the pricing structure for 8.1 with Bing and the "Configuration discount"
    https://i0.wp.com/pureinfotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/windows-81-oem-pricing.jpg

    1. Huh. Based on this, there won’t be a desktop for ~7″ devices, and Office 365 “must not be included” (last line above), so these tablets have no way to run productivity apps by design… what a dick move…

      1. Clarification, Office 365 includes installing and running the desktop Office apps… However, if you’re running the mobile version of Windows 10 then it doesn’t support a desktop and thus you wouldn’t have full access to everything Office 365 offers, besides the cloud features… So, naturally it wouldn’t make sense to include Office 365 if it’s going to be limited…

        However, since they’re combining the WP and PC/Metro App stores… you should still be able to run the free limited version of Office offered for all WP devices that you can link to your optional Office 365 account for working with your other PC devices and/or co-workers/colleagues…

        Mind, also, MS Office 2016 is coming out soon after Windows 10… meaning it won’t yet be listed as a option but if it’s the Metro/Modern version of Office that MS has been promising for the last two years then it should be a option as well… just not a free option, though they may offer a trial usage period…

        Consider, also, the MS App store does let you test out apps for free… even if they don’t offer a trial usage period…

        Besides, if you read my other post above, you’d also not this doesn’t rule out a OEM making a device intended for cross form factor usage and installing the full desktop version of Windows 10… Only that the normal defaults will be for what the device is intended and what’s practical given whether the OEM configures the device with enough resources to even run the full desktop version of Windows 10…

        A Windows 10 phone with only 1GB of RAM and 16GB of storage isn’t exactly meant to run the full desktop anyway, for example… and OEMs will likely want to keep costs minimum but again, it doesn’t rule out a premium niche product…

        So I’d keep a eye on on companies like Asus that tend to offer products that cover niche markets as well as mainstream products… After all, they offer one of the first phones with 4GB of RAM and that’s definitely pushing the limits of mobile as even Samsung only offers up to 3GB of RAM so far on their mobile devices…

        We’re still a year or two away before most companies start pushing the specs on mobile devices… LP-DDR3 has to make the switch to LP-DDR4, as one of the multiple milestones they have to cover before offering more becomes standard…

        So, there’s still a divide between mobile specs and larger PC capable devices but it should steadily get smaller going forwards and in another year or two they’ll likely change the defaults but till then the limitations on mobile devices have to be considered…

  15. That’s not surprising, Windows is free for devices with small screen. They want to encourage people to get larger tablets with paid version of Windows.

  16. Follow the money. Remember they are giving the OS away on small tablets so they have to cut features to make you upgrade. Think of it as WIndows Starter only cut even more. The question is whether they even allow unlocking the more advanced version. If they try to support ARM they probably won’t since that would be confusing and give the game away. Whether the marketplace will accept that logic remains to be seen.

  17. I want my phone to connect (wired or wireless) to a monitor and when it does I want to be able to use a FULL DESKTOP.

    Why is that so hard for these companies to get?????

    OH that’s right, MS sucks on the b@ll$ of harware manufacturers and does whatever they want so they can sell us MORE sh!t!!!!!

    F’m both. . . . Ubuntu Phone FTW!

  18. And I thought they were doing something good with merging desktop and tablet.. then they go and shoot themselves in the leg.

    1. I thought that to…..

      Ubuntu touch just showed how it can have windowing. I’ve given up on Microsoft getting a clue. I want a phone that can replace a desktop/notebook when needed.

        1. Yeah, that’s a start in the right direction. Next we need it wireless.

    2. There seems to be a abundance of confusion… let me try to clear it up…

      A) The full version of Windows 10 is actually usable on everything on down to, and including, 7″ devices…

      The Windows 10 Desktop SKU will be the more general purpose SKU. It will
      run on anything with an Intel chip, just like Windows XP, Windows 7 and
      Windows 8. The Windows 10 Desktop, technically, will be able to run on
      devices of almost any screen size (including existing 7-inch Intel-based tablets, as Microsoft’s Joe Belfiore tweeted yesterday).

      This is why it’s okay for people to upgrade their existing devices, even if it’s a 7″ W8 device…

      B) The only version of Windows 10 without any access to the desktop is the mobile version… To be clear, the mobile version only replaces WP and RT. and is mainly meant for ARM based devices, but can also run on some x86 ones as well… Specifically, these will target the 7″ and smaller device range but these are also devices not intended for other uses…

      The Windows 10 mobile SKU is aimed at devices where running Win32 apps
      doesn’t make sense, so it won’t support a desktop mode. It will be
      customized to run “Modern”/Universal apps from the unified Windows
      Store. The Mobile SKU is aimed at devices with small RAM and disk
      requirements.
      It’s built for locked down devices, though, in theory at
      least, it could run on a device with any size screen.

      C) All of these options are up to the OEM to decide, depending on what target market they intend to sell their device into…

      With Windows 10, Microsoft’s SKU plan is more about what OEMs want and
      customers expect, as opposed to dictates as to what is or isn’t the
      right chipset or feature set, from what I’m hearing from my contacts.

      The take away is that MS is setting up defaults they think the OEM’s want and for all we know it may be what OEMs have been asking for… However, since it is up to the OEMs it doesn’t rule out a OEM deciding to install the desktop version, for say a dockable device that can change its form factor as needed…

      It mainly only means they don’t want to push the desktop on devices smaller than 8″ going forward as the desktop wasn’t designed for really tiny screens… and those smaller devices tend to have lower specs than the larger devices, which makes them harder to fit the full OS into…

      But again, up to OEM and whether or not they want to offer a more premium product with higher than normal specs for a small mobile device…

      While, there’s also the fact MS isn’t finished with what other versions of Windows 10 they will be offering… As the ZDnet article also goes into, there should also be the Internet of Things and Embedded device versions, the Server and Enterprise versions, and there may be others as well… So we can’t yet rule out they may make a hybrid version to sit between the mobile and desktop versions specifically for form changing or dockable devices… and of course Windows 10 is still a work in progress and they’re not done with it regardless…

      There’s also a question of how productive Modern/Metro apps will be a year from now… MS Office 2016, for example, may be one of multiple productivity apps specifically made for Modern/Metro…

      Mind, Modern/Metro can run Windowed in the desktop Windows 10… So the same productivity app can still be offered for both and developers can consider more than just mobile devices when designing their apps…

      1. the point is – people want a 10 with full desktop on any new upcoming device! and exactl that is what ms again is denying the market. every time the same marmot game of the fools from redmond. 30 years – nothing learned.

        1. If ppl want that, how many ppl are buying 7″ devices or less to run windows desktop/laptop apps? It might be a shame, but i fail to see it’s a bad move in general.

          Most of the x86 windows tablets are 8″or larger, and they will still give you full windows.

          This also means they can support ARM on smaller devices without the confusion of two different operating systems.

          1. You’re failing to see the bigger implication here. Windows is merging the desktop OS with a mobile OS. It’s not about actually running windows desktop apps for a 7″ device. The 7 inch device will only be meant for as a portable “screen” for the actual device itself. When you’re at home, you dock it to a 24 inch display and you have a computer right there. No need to buy 2 computers. No need to transfer document files from one device to another. This is what everybody has been wanting. This was what Ubuntu was trying to accomplish with their kickstarter campaign.

            All windows tablets on 7 inch devices right now are x86. If history has shown us anything is that nobody wants to buy an ARM windows tablet.

          2. RT and S2 owners will likely disagree, along with all WP owners… :-p

            Really, there are companies… like some Airlines (Delta to name one), etc. that only require a basic device that will primarily be used as a tablet/phone for mobile applications and already are invested in the MS mobile devices…

            Sure, nothing is really certain at this point and they are starting from nearly the bottom of the market, since up till now the devices have largely been isolated niche parts of the market with limited app support but at the very least Windows 10 is merging those App stores and adding Universal apps for all devices going forward…

            Whether that will result in a game changer remains to be seen but MS is doubling down with Metro/Modern version of Office to start providing professional productivity apps that can run on pretty much anything… regardless of whether you have a desktop or not… and if other companies follow then it won’t be such a issue to cling to the desktop… especially as most people will still be using mostly dedicated devices and will continue to use multiple devices for multiple usage types…

            As much as some people want something that will allow one device to serve all usages, neither the technology or the market is yet at the point to offer it yet and still be an easily affordable offering…

            Really, companies that do offer anything like such products also charge up to thousands of dollars for them and there’s no guarantee it’ll have enough performance to really replace your laptop, let alone your desktop…

            Besides, it’s really up to the OEMs… nothing is really stopping them from offering a smaller device that still runs the desktop Windows 10… the same thing that allows existing users to upgrade even if they have smaller than 8″ device is the same thing that will still allow for such small devices to be still offered… it’s just a question of whether the OEMs would yet want to and whether they can offer one that we can realistically consider, given pricing and performance it’ll offer…

          3. If I remember correctly the Surface RT and Surface 2 didn’t do so hot compared to the pro series that they quickly slashed the prices to get them out.

            I’m not really sure why you don’t think the technology isn’t there. The Z3735F in the latest string of Windows tablets/hdmi sticks has exactly a mobile metro mode and a desktop mode. There are already products for it.. and they’re dirt cheap. Whether it’ll match the performance of a desktop depends on your usage, but I’ve been running Android Studio, octave analysis scripts, cpu intenstive algorithsm all on an NUC Celeron N2820 chip that really dwarves in benchmark compared to the Z3735F and it’s been handling them very well. The Z3735F can handle some of last years games on lowest settings and that’s pretty damn good.

            I have a feeling Microsoft is going to go back on their screen size and licensing agreements. I feel like the reason why they’re separating into a Mobile and true Desktop SKU’s is to put a price on any size device using a full desktop windows and put Mobile SKU’s as free for OEM’s to use.

          4. Sorry but you’re missing/ignoring the limitations of the technology… a Z3735F PC stick has very limited resources… low amounts of RAM and Storage… and the performance isn’t going to be that useful for most productivity uses…

            Also, PC sticks aren’t representative of mobile devices because a PC stick doesn’t have to deal with the additional heat from a screen and other mobile components that all get squeezed together in a mobile device and unlike a mobile device a PC stick doesn’t have to stay within the comfortable to hold temperature range and can actually push the limits of the silicon…

            Really, there’s a reason why even ARM SoCs have to deal with throttling and overheating issues!

            Even Core M is criticized for how much it throttles and that’s just to get a fairly decent amount of performance into a 10″ device… let alone anything smaller!

            And Intel is only providing phone SoCs for the size range being effected… and those phone SoCs are not meant to run full Windows desktop!

            Besides, productivity users still demand Ultrabook/laptop range performance or higher… So the good enough performance doesn’t really cover the productivity usages that would really demand a desktop…

            OEMs have to face the fact they need to offer a device that can really be used for productivity before a small device that can be both mobile and used as a desktop can really take off in the market… and that needs to cover more than just the basic desktop users…

            It’s not like they will suddenly ignore all the mistakes and reasons why the UMPC market failed in the first place…Lack of performance, too high priced, and too many compromises are all things that still need to be addressed with what is possible right now with the given technology…

            Besides, again, it’s really up to the OEMs… MS isn’t really limiting anything… just setting default standards that fit what the OEMs presently want but they wouldn’t be able to offer the desktop Windows 10 upgrade to existing devices with 7″ screens if there was really any self imposed limitations!

            MS just doesn’t expect OEMs to be pushing devices outside of the default ranges anytime soon…

            So it’s the OEMs that need to change and they won’t until the technology and markets change to make it both practical and profitable… and they need to be able to make a product that will be attractive to the majority and not just a niche of users before that really happens…

          5. That’s a long post but you didn’t mention exactly what the Z3735F can’t do in terms of productivity. You keep bringing up that necessity for higher performance for productivity, but what exactly is this productivity you’re referring to? Like I said, I run CPU intensive FFT Octave/Matlab scripts on my celeron N2820. I’ve also even done video conversion. Sure it’s not as fast as my Phenom desktop but it’s not like a 5 minute video takes 3 hours to convert. The standard productivity that most people will likely need is Microsoft Office, even my N2820 handles that without a hitch.

            Also, this heating issue you bring up. Did you completely forget that the Z3735F is also currently already in tablets that has not seen much overheating issues. I mean there are complaints but there’s no huge outcry about it.

            I think you’re seeing this the wrong way. An OEM producing an all-purpose device would not need to cater to power users because they know power users will stick with buying a desktop machine. There are more basic users than there are power users in the world. Someone who’s willing to buy a PC that sacrifices half of it’s hardware as a mobile device is not likely going to need it more than the desktop browsing and document editing.

            I see your point about this not being Microsoft setting a restriction and I understand that I missed that in the original article. But my reply to Mark on this thread is to say that people DO want a mobile device that can run full desktop software.

          6. There’s a long list of things the Z3735F can’t do… there are things even a Core M can’t do!

            Being productive means more than just being able to run the desktop, it means providing enough performance to be practical for productivity needs…

            Basic usage can fit some but most basic usage can be covered by mobile devices… which is why even a Smart Phone can cover most basic needs…

            And no, I did not forget what devices are using the Z3735F but what I told you is correct… The Z3735F is specifically for limited usages and devices with limited specs… It’s also true that you won’t find the Z3735F in anything smaller than a 7″ device unless it takes away most of the mobile components and doesn’t have to worry about working in the comfortable heat range for users to hold the device!

            And those devices also aren’t really pushing desktop usages either… especially those with only 1GB of RAM…

            Devices smaller than 7″ are using the mobile Phone SoCs and not the tablet SoCs! This is because the phone SoCs scale lower and are more easily squeezed into smaller devices…

            A mobile Phone SoC like Intel’s SoFIA SoC integrates the BT, WiFi and Cellular Modem into the SoC but they’re all separate additional chips for a tablet SoC that in turn uses more power, costs most to make and uses up more space that leaves less space for battery, etc that are vital for smaller devices!

            Really, I can go on and on about the reasons the hardware isn’t ready to push this yet…

            And yes, OEMS do need to cater to power users because that’s the main point for offering the desktop at all! Basic users aren’t in vital need of the desktop on mobile devices… otherwise mobile devices wouldn’t be doing as well as they are right now…

            Really, OEMs aren’t going to do something unless it’s really profitable and the problem is there isn’t a major need in the market for this function unless it can provide a good level of performance for actual productivity…

            A device that can scale in performance when docked is what people are really looking for, not just the ability to run a basic desktop in a pinch…

            Really, it’s not like it hasn’t been tried before and each time such a device has failed… Even the larger mobile tablets that can run the desktop aren’t being used as impromptu desktop systems by most users, and that will be even less likely with even smaller devices that will compromise even more…

            So just because some people want a feature doesn’t mean the OEMs are suddenly going to ignore all the evidence showing that the market and the technology isn’t ready to offer a viable product yet…

          7. The point of small tablet running desktop apps isn’t for power users. An HP Stream Mini 7 costs $99. (Nevermind the chinese cheapies that has 2gb of ram an 32gb of storage for $99). A basic desktop computer costs about $180 (if the HP Mini is actually shipping). A basic user would not buy an $180 over the $99 that is almost the same OS with the same desktop capabilities and a portable factor to it. The basic user doesn’t need to do much with a computer and would hence go for a tablet that they can also use as a desktop. A power user would need more processing power and more storage and possibly more ram and hence would buy another desktop PC on top of a tablet. I don’t quite understand your logic of why power users would be the one wanting a 2-in-1 tablet.

            But what is it that you can’t do on Z3735F? I don’t like it when people say things without specifying. I’ve given you examples of what I do comfortably on an underpowered chip. There are Youtube videos of people playing games on Z3735F tablets. I have also done multitrack real-time audio composition on much worse processors with 512 mb of ram.

            I hardly see these past devices as “failing”. The Asus T100 line was very popular. people are using them as laptop and completely forgetting that it’s also a tablet.

          8. The Asus T100 was popular but not popular enough to change the present trends… The tablet market is still in decline and most tablets are still running mobile OS options… The specs of the T100 could also not go into anything smaller without taking things away…

            The latest Chi 90 for example lacks a real dockable keyboard, lacks ports, etc. and it still only goes down to 8.9″…

            While other devices pushing the 7/8″ limit have exhibited heating and throttling issues as well as lacking components and features of higher end and larger devices…

            There are real world trade offs you’re not considering here that OEMs have to deal with all the time…

            Like it or not there are still limitations that prevent them from offering a product that can be successful enough in the mainstream market…

            Limiting devices to 32GB or less storage is junk for most users of desktop Windows who find even 64GB too limiting…

            1GB of RAM is barely enough for mobile apps, lets alone desktop apps and 2GB isn’t much better… Reality is mobile components are still very limited, they won’t really be pushing much higher capacity RAM until they make the switch from LP-DDR3 RAM to LP-DDR4 RAM and that’s going to cover the next year or two by itself!

            Performance is starting to get better but we’re talking about Core 2 Duo range performance where people expecting mobility want modern Core i5/i7… even U series offers more than double the performance of these mobile devices!

            The ATOM won’t get close to even first gen Core performance until the Goldmont based Broxton comes out and that’s still a year away…

            And even with Ultrabooks/laptops you aren’t really going to game with a imbedded GPU…

            Never mind the physical limitations of being able to use a proper full size keyboard, and not needing to squint on a small screen and having to juggle between mobile and desktop apps on the same device is not something everyone is all that ready to try…

            It’s mainly PC enthusiasts who want a modern UMPC that wants these options but we’re still the minority in the market and the OEMs aren’t going to profit much from us… especially, if we’re not willing to pay high premiums for them to push the limits…

            Already people are complaining about the pricing of even budget range devices… Reality is not everyone is willing to pay a premium to get a full PC shoved into a tiny device you can hold in your hand…

            Most people want more than just being able to connect a larger screen and keyboard and mouse to make the most of such a device…

            Really, people are already complaining about the pricing of PC sticks for being higher than equivalent spec tablets… People just have no real ideal how much it cost to squeeze devices into ever smaller designs and still provide everything you’d normally get from larger devices…

            It’s not that these devices are failing but there are limitations and market realities that limit what the OEMs are going to be willing to offer right now…

            While it’s not like Intel and others aren’t going to try to change this… Scalable architecture that can increase performance when conditions change, such as when docked… are being developed…

            Core M, for example, can operate at higher performance if the dock provides additional cooling as well as additional power… Similarly, we’re going to see mobile devices slowly offer scalable performance and then we’ll start seeing more options offered but till then we have to face the present market and technology realities…

          9. This isnt going anywhere. You’re still avoiding the question of what it is that current windows tablets can’t do. You keep regurgitating how the performance is nothing like next gen chips, but what kind of productivity requires you to have that kind of performance? What is it that the average person can’t do on the Atom? Like I said, I have a 512 mb ram laptop that I composed a 14-track orchestral composition off of. Your requirements of basic need seem a lot higher than the average person. The average person doesn’t need a Core M to do office work or simple photo editing.

          10. How many average people do you actually know? I help people with their computer problems and most average people actually need a lot more than you’re indicating…

            And no, I never avoided your question, you’re just not getting how obvious the answer is!

            Maybe listing them will make it more clear to you…

            1) Present Windows tablets don’t provide sufficient performance to run the full range of productivity apps as well as people who need to be productive need to work with… emphasis on Work!

            Really, people complain about being unable to properly use the desktop with even 1GB of RAM… there’s no way most people are going to find a device with only 512MB of RAM sufficient for anything modern running the full desktop!

            Being able to get around basic usage is also not the same as being productive and people who need to be productive for work do require a lot more than you’re doing!

            You’re only confusing basic usages with anything approaching real desktop productivity usages for work purposes!

            Problem is you’re not really considering the actual selling point, when mobile devices have access to basic productivity apps too… you don’t really need a desktop for things like word processors, the majority of Office type apps, and basic video editing, audio editing, etc.

            So any argument for the desktop has to be specifically for what the mobile devices can’t cover and not just whether or not you’d rather use a desktop app or not… and that means the higher range of performance where people even consider Ultrabooks/Laptops as only providing the basics!

            It’s not sufficient to just offer a desktop unless it also offers performance and functionality significantly beyond what the competition is offering…

            However, the most powerful ATOM is still over 50% less processor efficient than a Ivy Bridge Core i5… and those wanting to be productive aren’t really willing to settle for less, especially if they are planning on getting a device that would serve more than one usage range…

            You’re an enthusiast and that’s fine but most regular people still aren’t crazy about the performance of mobile devices and continue to carry multiple devices and not just because of form factor but also performance differences…

            Mind, the tablet market is in decline right now… Something that didn’t seem to register with you before but most people are getting phablets! Meaning most people are settling for mobile OS and limited mobile devices to fill their basic needs and just use a more powerful Ultrabook/Laptop or even desktop for their productivity needs…

            Your entire argument would only make sense if there was a real market for people demanding limited desktop usages but there really isn’t!

            The success of devices like the Asus T100 doesn’t change this trend! It’s a much larger 10″ device anyway and nothing they are doing with Windows 10 changes 8″ and larger devices… So let’s not confuse them with the real point you’re arguing with me and that’s why they aren’t offering desktop Windows 10 for devices smaller than 8″ going forward!

            While the GMA performance is below even competing ARM products… So much so that Intel had to focus on GMA performance for the next ATOM update with Cherry Trail and Braswell… but even then they’re only closing the gap and not leading the market in GPU performance for mobile devices… let alone PC’s…

            So there’s still a lot of work that they need to do before such products will appeal to the majority of users and not just the niche enthusiasts… but the present technology means going even below the performance of a Z3735F for devices smaller than 7″…

            2) Present Windows tablets still can’t be put into anything smaller than 8″ without losing features, capabilities, and performance to be scaled lower…

            Like it or not, mobile design puts some really strict limitation on design… They can’t push the limits of the silicon because as soon as they do the device becomes too hot to hold by the user… It’s fine for a PC stick to push this limit because users won’t be constantly holding it but not a device that people will hold in their hands…

            A Z3735F is one of the lowest end tablet SoCs Intel is presently offering… It is as stripped down and basic as they come… It’s a $17 starting Tray SoC, compared to the Z3740 and other higher end SoCs that are more like $32… There are definite reasons for the price difference!

            Like the Z3735F supports slower RAM, less max RAM capacity, lower memory bandwidth, fewer supported features, etc… Never mind, how most design devices around it with limited features like not always including all port options, etc. and even then, with all those limitations, you won’t see the Z3735F in anything smaller than a 7″ without taking away even more components…

            Since it doesn’t help that mobile devices will also have to deal with additional heat sources like the screen, etc… compared to idle states the screen can even use more power than the entire SoC and has to be constantly on as long as you are using the screen…

            The fact that even ARM SoCs are facing heating and throttling issues makes this point really clear!

            No one is putting a SoC into small devices without lowering the max performance and features offered… especially as soon as you hit the phone size devices! Even phablets put more limitations on performance options than larger tablets do…

            3) Full modern desktop requires a lot of resources… especially, for the average user who wants it to work out of the box and without any need for continuous maintenance!

            Present mobile tablets are forced to use the same limited components as the rest of the mobile market and that means there are no easy options to provide enough RAM and storage to properly run a desktop system!

            A $99 with only 1GB of RAM and only 16GB of storage isn’t going to make use of a desktop to begin with!

            Even the Asus T100… one of the number one things users have to do is continuously manage storage to prevent it running out on them and deal with the limitations of only 2GB of RAM… Only the larger T200 even offers a 4GB option and anything else from any other company still charges a high premium to offer anything approaching sufficient for most users RAM and storage…

            2GB is pretty much the minimum for even basic desktop with modern Windows usages and to not worry about storage you need more than 64GB… but until mobile devices can easily offer these then such devices aren’t going to appeal to most regular users… only enthusiasts who don’t mind compromising but the market for them isn’t strong enough…

            All this versus a OS specifically designed to run on limited mobile hardware… The same reasons people have settled for Android and iOS devices is the same reason why a mobile Windows 10 actually makes sense in the present market…

            4) The desktop for Windows 10 still can’t run on ARM and the Intel SoCs being used in the smaller devices are the ones specifically optimized for running mobile OS and can’t run the desktop Windows!

            So you’re arguing for options they really don’t have yet!

            At least not anything that won’t require a expensive custom design that will push the limits of what’s possible right now!

            Most people getting a small mobile device also don’t want to need to still carry a phone, which is one of the reasons why phablets are the leading product right now… But there really isn’t a PC tablet option that can serve as both a PC and a mobile phone function…

            Only the mobile phone SoCs integrate most components but they aren’t intended to run the full desktop…

            5) The people looking for desktop are also looking for performance as otherwise there’s no real reason to replace their other devices with a single device!

            You’re just confusing that there are also people who like the option even if they won’t need to be actually productive and just want to be flexible… and be able to do what they want in a pinch, even if it’s not as efficient as most people require for work purposes…

            6) Most people aren’t willing to pay extra to have more squeezed into a mobile device… again, options like more RAM and storage to properly run on desktop on means premium pricing on mobile devices…

            Like already stated, people don’t even get why a PC stick can cost more than a equivalent configured tablet because they don’t understand that it’s increasingly difficult to put a full system into a even smaller design and that in turn raises the production costs for the OEM and thus the pricing of the product…

            Intel specifically designed the present Bay Trail devices for 8″ and larger tablets… It can go into a 7″ barely but anything smaller is really out of the question without voiding many of the concerns that determine mobile designs… How hot they get while holding the device being just one of them… there are more concerns!

            7) The accessory market isn’t really set up to support a major push for mobile devices to also cover desktop usages… Docking stations are still pretty pricey, there’s a lack of universal standards to make options interchangeable and easy to offer for all devices, most mobile devices still lack enough ports and power output/input options to properly cover external add ons… among other problems they have to overcome before this changes…

            Add all of this together and it’s pretty clear what I’m telling you is the simple reality of the market right now… especially, if you actually focus on the fact this only effects devices smaller than 8″ and for most of those we’ll only be dealing with phones and phablets in the majority of cases…

            Really, sure.. some people can be fine with less but for the OEMs they have to consider most users and not any particular niche!

            This doesn’t exclude some companies still experimenting and trying to appeal to the niche markets but nothing in this article is about covering the niche markets, just what will be the norm in most cases!

            There’s really not much changing in fact… most full Windows devices were already 8″ and larger… The 7″ was more an exception than standard and the tablet market specifically is pushing for 5-7″ range to fall into the phablet market… Until that changes, the focus won’t be on pushing the size limit of traditional PC systems…

          11. Yeah I’m not reading that. I stopped after first 3 paragraphs because you still haven’t given an example of what can’t be done. You say work. But what work? What is it that the accountant in your office can’t do with this machine? What is it that the HR can’t do with this machine? What? Is it that hard to give a straight answer than dodging it? I’m not trying to be a dick, I just seriously want to know what kind of device I’m buying into when I do pick one of them up.

            What’s an average user? People who browse the internet and watch YouTube videos. People who use chat services and would like to type faster than on a mobile touch screen. People who use their computers to do online banking. People who type up a quick word document. People who spend 30 minutes a day on emails. People who spends hours a day posting on facebook People who edits a photo from their vacation collection. The average user does not draw 3D graphics, produce AutoCAD drawings, generate simulation code of electromagnetic interferences or develop mobile apps, write automated bash scripts.

          12. If you don’t read then you’ll never learn… I gave multiple examples!

            Really, list a job and I’ll give you an example!

            Graphic Artist, there’s Photoshop (on a professional level and not just basic usage)… Advance programs like Maya, etc that you would be nuts to run on a mobile device….

            Video Editing… Pretty much anything beyond basic 720P editing that would be mainly be just for something like uploading to youtube would be beyond these mobile devices… The minimum for something like Adobe Premiere is 4GB (8GB recommended) RAM… and most editing is CPU intensive and requires a lot of performance to do it anywhere near real time…

            Cad work is pretty much out of the question… along with most 3D modeling in general… even some non-work stuff like modern high end PC games, not everyone will settle for barely running or low settings or like to limit themselves to older games… Software developers who need to run VM can’t really use these mobile tablets because they have far too little RAM, etc…

            Really, when I say there’s a list means there’s a list! We are talking about very limited devices that not only have limited performance but even more limited resources to work with!

            It doesn’t help that a iGPU means part of the memory needs to be set aside to provide video memory and that leaves even less for the OS and apps to run from…

            You’re just confusing your enthusiasm for the product range with whether it actually fills most people’s needs or not…

            Really, the simple fact people consider even much more powerful Core i5/i7 Ultrabooks/laptops barely sufficient is blatantly clear enough as it is!

            There’s a really big difference from being able to run a app from being able to make full use of the app and get real work done in a timely manner!

            Regardless, by not reading my full post you’re also missing that you’d need more than just basic usages to really set the desktop apart from what mobile devices are already capable of providing… it’s not just about being able to run things… they have to run well enough to warrant the other compromises these devices deal with versus the more capable larger devices because there are viable alternatives!

          13. Except those wouldn’t be average use would it now? You’ve completely missed the point and went off in a weird tangent. Can you confidently tell me at least half of the people you randomly pick off the street knows how to do Photoshop? Honestly, I’d be surprised if more than 1 person knows how to use Photoshop, Maya or any video editing. People joke about using Photoshop all the time, but really the majority of them knows as much Photoshop as MS Paint. My original point was productivity based on average use. You seem to believe the average person uses these tools. The average user is not going to say I want to buy a tablet that can be used as a desktop so I can use Photoshop on it… because they DON’T use Photoshop. Look at the number of people with a macbook/air with a browser open. Walk into a library and look at the study carrels of people with laptops. Look at how many Photoshop, Solidwork, AutoCAD, Development IDE is on? Now compare that to the number of people with Microsoft Office or just a browser open. Your argument tells me you believe the majority of people actually will do any of those advanced productivity?

            But speaking of Photoshop, check XDA forums, Photoshop runs well on the Z3735F. I wouldn’t be surprised if I can get SolidWorks or LabView to run well on this thing. I’ve used those on a first generation garbage 8.9 inch netbook before and that didn’t stop me from getting my graduate degree at all. Not once did I feel like I needed a faster machine. And this is me speaking as a power user, not the average person. The only thing I needed was a larger monitor, but that’s the whole point of discussion – a small device tethered to a large screen as desktop. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying people wouldn’t want better performing technology in a small device, but it’s not a “need” for the average person with basic productivity. A gamer is not the average user. A graphic artist is not the average user. A software developer is most definitely not the average user with basic uses. A video editor is also certainly not the average user.

          14. For people who work, those are all average use… unless you don’t work!

            Sorry, but you’re the one missing the point… the graphic artist was just one example!

            Pretty much any serious productivity computer work requires more than a mobile device provides! Simple fact of the matter the market speaks for itself and people aren’t getting mobile devices to be productive… they’re getting much higher end Ultrabooks/laptops and desktops to be productive!

            And you’re point was already countered by the simple fact any basic usages has to compete with what mobile devices already provide… If you’re going to argue for a desktop then the reasons for it have to stand out and none of your examples stand out!

            Android, Chrome, iOS can all handle basic usages… you don’t need a desktop to use a word processor and most Office type apps… you don’t need a desktop to do basic photo, video, or even audio editing… you don’t need a desktop to play casual games… you don’t need a desktop to use emulators, etc…

            So let’s not pretend that the present state of desktop options for mobile devices are little more than optional bonuses for those few who either rather use a desktop app because that’s what they’re used to or simply want something more flexible than what the average mobile device yet offers… but these reasons aren’t going to produce high market demand that is needed before OEMs really take notice and start designing products for those uses…

            Most people who want just a secondary device will either settle for a more limited traditional mobile device or settle for a larger tablet that still lets them use the desktop without needing to dock it… yet another reason for you to read my previous posts fully as that point also deals with the fact present docking options are still too pricey for most people and most devices don’t get consistent peripheral support…

            And considering I used to work as a graphic artist, please don’t even try to pretend that present tablet SoCs are anywhere even close to really adequate for running Photoshop in anything approaching professional usages… The Z3735F will never be used by any professional for any real Photoshop work!

            Again, there’s a very big difference from being able to run a app from running it well enough to get real work done in a reasonable time and without any significant compromises!

            You’re argument is simply that you don’t think average users need a lot but at best that’s only if they don’t need to use the device as their primary system!

            Completely ignoring the main appeal to have a device that can both serve as a mobile device and a impromptu desktop PC is to not require another system for most of your use needs but that really can’t be done if you’re going to limit yourself to what a present gen mobile device is capable of and just shove the desktop on it…

            Never mind you have yet to address even half of the things I brought up in the previous posts!

            Really, they wouldn’t be bending over backwards trying to push out advances every 1-2 years that will produce multiple times improvements over the previous releases if things were adequate for most users already…

            Only desktops are at that stage and is why there hasn’t been significant improvements in desktop processors over the last few years but mobile processors are being improved by leaps and bounds nearly every year!

            There’s just still a big gap between mobile performance and resources versus what you can get with even a very basic Ultrabook/laptop… ignoring this reality won’t change it!

            We’ll eventually get a good enough product for them to start pushing products that can cross usage ranges at even very small sizes but we’re just not there yet!

          15. Okay, this is pointless. You disregard the obvious with one statement which is totally subjective but it’s just wrong.

            “For people who work, those are all average use… unless you don’t work!” This is not true at all! And you know it. Okay, well maybe it’s true in the wording but it doesn’t help your point. In fact, it just makes it worse. There are a whole lot more people with computers at home than there are jobs that require you to use a computer. Do janitors need a computer? Do chefs need a computer? Do bus drivers need a computer? But when they go home, they do have a computer a regular usage computer with no productivity other than word. “For people who work” So I assume you mean the people who work at a job that requires a computer and that requires these advanced productivity tools. That’s a pretty small freaking percentage of all the people with a computer. That’s not the average is it? That’s average for them but that’s only a small fraction of all the jobs of all the people with a home computer. The only jobs that require these advanced productivity are the engineers, software developers, film editors, etc. And again, not even one out of ten people would know how to use any of these advanced productivity. How is it that this is an average use machine for work? And secondly… if it’s for work, it wouldn’t be for basic usage would it?

            You can’t just dismiss the obvious.

            “Android, Chrome, iOS can all handle basic usages… you don’t need a desktop to use a word processor and most Office type apps… you don’t need a desktop to do basic photo, video, or even audio editing… you don’t need a desktop to play casual games… you don’t need a desktop to use emulators, etc…” Not even true at all and you know this too. Word processors on mobile are meant for viewing, not for producing. I can’t imagine typing even a chapter of a thesis using a tablet. Try making a pamphlet advertisement to sell your furniture with phone number rip-off strips on a mobile device. That’s a regular home usage scenario. Huge frustrations. No photo editor on mobile allows you do any real photo manipulation other than putting in filters. For pete’s sake you can’t even cut out a part of a picture with a lasso tool. And that’s pretty freakin basic for photo editing. It’s even worse than MS Paint!

            Now your point is starting to sound like everyone needs a Core i5 machine to do anything because anything below just doesn’t allow you to do any of those work. But it’s odd, there are a lot of machines and laptops in Best Buy with performances much less than a Core i5. Those just aren’t good enough for most people anyway, why do they even bother making them, right?

            “And considering I used to work as a graphic artist, please don’t even try to pretend that present tablet SoCs are anywhere even close to really adequate for running Photoshop in anything approaching professional usages… The Z3735F will never be used by any professional for any real Photoshop work!” I’m not pretending, I’m a photographer and I’m running Gimp on my garbage of a chip N2820 that’s much freaking worse than the Z3735F and it’s doing it without a hitch. How am I doing that? Magic?

            You sound like you’re saying everything based on what you want and need, and you believe you fall into the average user category… which is absolutely incorrect. Everything in your previous posts are true if you were a power user and not an average user. If you can’t get around that fact. I can’t do this discussion anymore.

          16. Sorry, but you clearly don’t understand the business aspect of what we’re discussing!

            1) We are discussing the reason why OEMs would even want to sell a device that crosses over from mobile to desktop markets… without a clear selling point this isn’t going to happen!

            2) People who work with computers would be the primary purchasers of any device that sold itself on the idea of being productive, which is the primary reason to include a desktop!

            3) The technology isn’t at the point that such a cross over device can be made into a smaller than 8″ device without making multiple compromises and only providing below standard performance…

            People want what they’re used to!

            One of the reasons UMPCs failed, not only netbooks, is that they were too under powered and didn’t fulfill user expectations… especially, for the high price they had to pay for the UMPC devices…

            Similarly, any modern device will still require a high premium that frankly the market has shown people aren’t willing to pay…

            4) You objections are all false anyway… Chromebooks have keyboards and you don’t need to type on a touch screen and all mobile tablets can use wireless keyboards… there’s even support for USB keyboards on most modern devices!

            Sony Android tablets even let you use PS3 game controllers!

            Never mind Chromebook users can slap on Crouton and run full GNU/Linux and give them full access to alternative desktop apps, including Office suites that rival MS Office!

            So, none of your objections are really valid! Since you’re clearly exaggerating the limitations of mobile devices and being hypocritical because the device you are arguing for would share many of those same limitations anyway!

            The fact Android/iOS still dominate the market and Chromebooks easily rival any Windows tablets shows this is the real competition and things any Windows device will have to overcome in order to be a real viable product for OEMs…

            Again, average users have already spoken with their wallets! Windows devices are going to need to offer more than just a limited desktop function to really stand out!

            Really, it’s simple… if there’s not enough profit in it then OEMs are not going to offer it!

            There’s real competition, whether you want to admit it or not! The desktop is simply not a big selling point on a device that can’t offer good enough performance and easy flexibility… Small devices, especially ones people would use primarily as phones most of the time, won’t be able to make full use of the desktop anyway…

            There are multiple other reasons as well, many I already covered if you actually bothered to read my previous posts… like the simple fact most docking stations are still too expensive and there’s not enough universal standards to make getting accessories easy… all of which is required to properly support a mobile device serving as both a mobile device and as a optional desktop…

            While the option for OEMs to include such accessories brings us right back to the fact most people aren’t willing to pay a premium for a product, even if it adds extra functionality… at least without that extra functionality really standing out and that’s my point… it doesn’t right now!

            So there are a litany of reasons why they’re not doing it right now and you’re just going have to face that fact!

          17. The selling point of a cross over device is the exact same reason why phablets such as the Note and the iPhone 6 Plus is doing so well. You only have to buy one device . There’s no need to sync files, there’s no need to transfer files through media storage, there’s no need to install the same app on two different devices. Which also means you now no longer need more than one license to install the same software on a desktop/portable machine. People who use phablets do not read magazines or e-novels. They do the basic light reading of news articles and facebook feeds. People who wants to read a magazine or novels on their mobile device would buy a tablet.

            Secondly, your analysis of the market is absolutely flawed. Both iOS and Android have been out much much longer than Windows on mobile devices has been. Windows has been plagued by Microsoft’s past image of bad Windows releases, OS that’s prone to malware and BSOD, failed hardware like the Zune, the weakness of Internet Explorer. Windows not having the market isn’t because of people’s capabilities and needs. Ask a person why they would not choose a windows tablet over an Android/iOS tablet and they I guarantee you they will say “but it’s Microsoft Windows. I don’t want to use Windows.” It’s not about limitations, it’s about poor imagery. Thanks for bringing up Chromebook because that’s actually making my point too. A chromebook actually has more limitations than a Windows tablet, but it’s pretty insanely popular. People don’t know about these new cross over devices yet.. because Windows tablets are just starting to show up.

            You seem to think OEM knows best on what the market wants. In terms of what history has shown, OEMs are not willing to be lab rats. Back in the days, people want laptops that are faster and better performing, so OEMs churn out the same laptops with better resolutions, and faster speeds. Nowadays, people are complaining even when the iPad now increased to 2gb of ram because there’s nothing innovative and new to offer. Just because OEM’s aren’t manufacturing these devices doesn’t mean they’re making the right move.

            Your keyboards point. I really don’t know what you’re getting at. I’m certainly not talking about the difficulties of typing on an touch screen tablet. The point is formatting on Android/iOS office application is a nightmare because the apps do not support full formatting like the desktop Office does. It has nothing to do with typing on touch screen or keyboards..

            “One of the reasons UMPCs failed, not only netbooks, is that they were too under powered and didn’t fulfill user expectations… especially, for the high price they had to pay for the UMPC devices…” It’s not just about performance, it’s about price to performance ratio. The netbooks failed because they were overpriced for something that was underpowered. The current string of Z3735F tablets are cheap devices for something that’s underpowered but can perform a lot of basic usage. Raspberry Pi is critically underpowered but it’s $35 so it’s selling like hot cakes for web servers and media centers. There are much better developer boards and much better dedicated servers, but because it’s $35 people will buy it and use it.

            What premium? An HP 7 inch windows tablet is $99. Heck that’s cheaper than most 7 inch Android tablets out there nevermind the iPads.

            What does the market want? Let’s see, why are people wanting Android on ChromeOS? A merge between mobile and desktop! Why is Google working on multiple window mode for Android? Merging towards a desktop! Why does Samsung have dual window mode? Merge towards a desktop! Why have so many tech analysts question the big question “will there ever be an iOS and OSX merge?” I’m telling you, people want a mobile device with a mobile OS that can be changed into a desktop OS.

            Also docking stations. You do know to dock a tablet to a monitor means to connect the HDMI right? Yeah there are fancy docks where you get usb ports and power charging and everything, but literally, to dock means to plug in your charging adapter, plug in the hdmi connector, plug in a usb hub and it’s docked.

          18. Crossover selling point on goes so far, but you’re failing to realize where such crossover gets in the way of offering a desktop!

            A crossover device like a phablet still has to function as a phone first and foremost! The full desktop Windows 10 is not designed to function as a phone OS… So you would have to compromise on that crossover functionality to add the desktop functionality!

            While you’re totally ignoring the role of universal apps in the Windows 10 ecosystem… There’s far less need for a desktop if you can already use the same app across multiple devices and it’s usually far easier to use the dedicated productivity device instead of augmented your mobile device!

            It’s one of the reasons why people like Chromebooks… you can lose the Chromebook but you’re up and running as soon as you log into another! The same would be true for Universal Apps on Windows 10 devices and making use of MS cloud services!

            And how long Android and iOS have been out just makes the argument for the desktop on mobile devices even harder to make… Android and iOS have evolved to serve the needs of mobile users, but the traditional desktop has not!

            Even if they were to provide such a device it would only be useful when docked but will only get in the way for the device primary usage as a mobile device!

            So again, this brings back the primary point that the desktop isn’t a real selling point unless it can offer more than just the desktop… it needs to offer productivity above what mobile devices can offer and be worth the trouble and costs needed to get all the accessories needed to make full use of that desktop mode!

            Really, you’re slamming yourself against the wall of reality here by refusing to understand why Windows devices haven’t already taken a larger share of the mobile market!

            Besides, Windows has been a option on mobile devices for far longer than W8 devices have been offered! The desktop has always failed on mobile devices!

            So, let’s not pretend no one is aware of these options! There wouldn’t be fans of the OQO, just to name one example, who still want a similar device out if there was no awareness!

            Even netbooks delved into the tablet market and UMPC’s most definitely predate even Android devices…

            But you can’t just ignore all the reasons why UMPC’s failed and pretend everything is different now when it’s still not!

            Really, who’s going to get a $500+ device, a full PC mobile device is going to cost at least as much as a high mobile phone if not a lot more, that still needs a close to $200 docking station, along with cost of monitor, keyboard, and mouse… when the dedicated productivity device can be had for less?

            If you really think that’s going to be something the mainstream market will go for then I have a bridge I want to sell you!

          19. A lot of things you say do not make sense I’m not even sure if you know what you’re writing at this point.

            The full desktop Windows 10 is not designed to function as a phone OS… So you would have to compromise on that crossover functionality to add the desktop functionality! That’s what the Metro UI is.. There’s no compromise. I’ve been using VoIP phones from my netbook for years. I didn’t do anything other than install a software for it. Similarly, what is compromised by using a phone dialer on a desktop Window 10? People are making facetime calls and voice conferencing calls on a laptop now. How is it any different than having a phone dialer app on desktop Windows 10?

            There’s far less need for a desktop if you can already use the same app across multiple devices and it’s usually far easier to use the dedicated productivity device instead of augmented your mobile device! I’ll give an example of average use where mobile just doesn’t cut it. Nothing fancy. Me asking my girlfriend to zip and send me all the vacation photos she took. 500 photos and she’s tapping one photo at a time in her camera roll.. where on desktop you just click and drag across the filenames you know. Can you imagine what that’s like asking for her to send me photos after a 3 week vacation with 2000+ photos? Can you even archive and zip on an Apple device?

            It’s one of the reasons why people like Chromebooks… you can lose the Chromebook but you’re up and running as soon as you log into another! The same would be true for Universal Apps on Windows 10 devices and making use of MS cloud services! Well that’s not a hardware limitation is it? That’s also something MS can implement in existing hardware and not something you have to buy a new hardware for. Not even the subject of discussion.

            And how long Android and iOS have been out just makes the argument for the desktop on mobile devices even harder to make… Android and iOS have evolved to serve the needs of mobile users, but the traditional desktop has not! Again, Metro mode. And also, this argument is confusing me because it doesn’t make sense at all. Windows has evolved to cater to mobile users as clearly seen from Windows 8 and Windows 10, iOS/Android has not done jack to run on desktop.

            So again, this brings back the primary point that the desktop isn’t a real selling point unless it can offer more than just the desktop… it needs to offer productivity above what mobile devices can offer and be worth the trouble and costs needed to get all the accessories needed to make full use of that desktop mode! Woah, back up a minute here. All of a sudden desktop software has less to offer than mobile devices? Since when? A 7 inch windows tablet does not cost more than a 7 inch Android tablet. There is no trouble.

            Even if they were to provide such a device it would only be useful when docked but will only get in the way for the device primary usage as a mobile device! Yeah… that’s kind of the point. You use it as a mobile in it’s mobile form when it’s mobile. And when you’re at home and when you need a desktop, you’d dock it. What is the argument here? I didn’t say Windows should just go full desktop and ignore Metro mode on tablets.

            Besides, Windows has been a option on mobile devices for far longer than W8 devices have been offered! The desktop has always failed on mobile devices! Those devices were not meant for touch but with a stylus. They also cost a hell of a lot more than a laptop or a desktop. Again, they failed due to price to performance. Completely different things. And I’m also not saying they should just ignore Metro mode.

            Even netbooks delved into the tablet market and UMPC’s most definitely predate even Android devices… Those did not have touch style mobile capabilities. They did not have an easy to use interface. Again I’m not saying Windows should be full desktop always on a tablet device.

          20. That’s what the Metro UI is.. There’s no compromise.

            Sorry, no… that’s not what the Metro UI is for! Never mind, you would have to disable the desktop anyway to prevent it from interfering with using the device as a phone!

            A VOIP is no replacement for the full range of Smart Phone functionality either! Never mind it won’t work where the Internet isn’t available…

            Really, you’re only kidding yourself by considering such alternatives as serious viable options for a device that will primarily be used as a mobile device!

            I’ll give an example of average use where mobile just doesn’t cut it.
            Nothing fancy. Me asking my girlfriend to zip and send me all the
            vacation photos she took. 500 photos and she’s tapping one photo at a
            time in her camera roll.. where on desktop you just click and drag
            across the filenames you know.

            Sorry but you’re arguing from the viewpoint of someone who apparently doesn’t know what mobile devices can and can’t do…

            Sure, there isn’t a default file manager with mobile OS but there are add on file manager that also handle zipping and unzipping file and folders… So you don’t have a valid argument here!

            Besides, you’d have to include the mobile Windows 10 in your argument and that most definitely will have a file manager and will be able to handle zip files!

            Well that’s not a hardware limitation is it? That’s also something MS
            can implement in existing hardware and not something you have to buy a
            new hardware for. Not even the subject of discussion.

            Sorry, but it is because you’re arguing for the desktop and the desktop does not support this feature! So is relevant to this discussion!

            Again, Metro mode. And also, this argument is confusing me because it
            doesn’t make sense at all.

            It’s really simple, Metro does not automatically mean it supports all mobile functions! You can’t yet have full integration of what is supported on phones with what’s supported for desktops and the Metro version that the full desktop Windows 10 will be using has to be able to work with the desktop!

            While again, even if they disable the desktop and only enable it when docked it still means you need to go through the trouble of getting a dock and all the accessories that go with it to make that work and would have to be useful enough for that extra effort and costs!

            Otherwise it won’t make sense in the real world!

            A 7 inch windows tablet does not cost more than a 7 inch Android tablet.

            Wrong, a Android device is still cheaper! Windows device require higher minimum specs but leave less free space and use much more resource hungry apps that makes them less suited for mobile usages!

            Never mind you’d have to ignore the fact Intel is presently subsidizing mobile devices and thus they don’t reflect real cost differences and Intel can’t keep up subsidizing them forever either!

            Mobile devices can also use more power efficient and cheaper components, like phone SoCs that integrate most of the hardware into the SoC and leave more space for the battery, etc. to still provide good battery life in even very small device sizes…

            And when you’re at home and when you need a desktop, you’d dock it. What is the argument here?

            Added costs, the simple fact most people will only use their device as it comes out of the box, the fact people who would go through all that added trouble would also want to make sure it would be worth it…

            Really, what’s not the problem?

            Those devices were not meant for touch but with a stylus.

            Sorry but you fail to realize the desktop is still not meant for touch, eliminating it’s usefulness on such a small device for anything but when it is docked!

            You’d have to totally ignore all the extra work and costs required to use a mobile device as a desktop before you could even consider having a desktop mode on a mobile device a viable option…

            Really, companies have been trying to make that work for decades! Even Google tried to develop a desktop mode for Android but ultimately gave up because there is no real interest in anything that can’t provide everything people can get from a existing dedicated productivity device!

            And even with Metro to soften the issue with mobile usages, it still doesn’t change a mobile device they can offer now won’t be able to offer everything! Emphasis on everything!

            Especially, with all the added costs and trouble it requires to set up a mobile device as a optional desktop device…

            Again, docking stations are too expensive still… mobile devices still don’t have universal docking options… most mobile devices don’t even support charging and usage with a dock at the same time!

            You are basically completely missing all the logistic problems with making such a set up work!

            Again I’m not saying Windows should be full desktop always on a tablet device.

            On that we can agree but you are arguing for a option that won’t be easy for most people to take advantage of and still costs too much to offer!

            People don’t want to pay more than a cheap laptop for a device that will compete with cheap mobile devices and they don’t want to pay extras for a desktop they will likely not use very much in most cases…

            The selling point really has to be a lot stronger before that changes and it will require significantly more performance than today’s technology allows and at a price point that the average user can easily get it for…

            Never mind the issue of even finding hardware that will work well in a phone to phablet size range device and is even designed to be able to run full Windows…

            For Intel, they’re still using Phone SoC that are only meant to run mobile OS right now… They’re still using PowerVR GPU’s that don’t have proper Windows drivers…

            It’ll probably won’t be until the Goldmont based Broxton gets released and they finally phase out the PowerVR GPU that OEMs can really get serious about offering small devices that can really support the full Windows desktop but that’s all over a year away yet!

            While, it may have been lost in this discussion but there’s nothing stopping the OEM from offering a device that can offer the desktop… You’re just not going to get that option with a ARM based SoC or even a Intel phone SoC…

            Only the tablet on up range SoCs support full Windows and while they are still not able to easily go into anything smaller than a 7″ tablet it doesn’t rule out makers of premium priced products to still make one…

            Like Panasonic has been known to shove even a Core i7 into a 10″ netbook size mini-laptop… It was just priced north of $1500… and even a ATOM based UMPC will likely still cost more than a few hundred, especially if they give it enough RAM and Storage…

            Such products just won’t be mainstream offerings but desktop Windows 10 does support such options, which is why existing 7″ W8 tablet users can upgrade to Windows 10 and keep their desktop!

          21. Never mind, you would have to disable the desktop anyway to prevent it from interfering with using the device as a phone! How is that an issue if you keep it in mobile view? I never said Windows 10 should be ALL about desktop.

            A VOIP is no replacement for the full range of Smart Phone functionality either! Never mind it won’t work where the Internet isn’t available… Why do you always miss the point? The point isn’t about internet calling vs phone calling it’s just about using a Windows device as an audio communication tool. Exactly what is the issue with putting a phone dialer on Windows Metro menu?

            Sorry but you’re arguing from the viewpoint of someone who apparently doesn’t know what mobile devices can and can’t do… Actually, I’m a primary Android user, and I know full well it’s doable on Android I’m just not willing to Google to see if iOS has this restriction considering a lot of the file system is locked down. But then again, the point is the convenience. This is why I often ask people for photos and they reply with, “I’ll do it when I get home and do it from my desktop.” That’s why it’d be great to have desktop capabilities on a device where your photos are because then you wouldn’t have to transfer the files to desktop first then archive and send it.

            Besides, you’d have to include the mobile Windows 10 in your argument and that most definitely will have a file manager and will be able to handle zip files! That’s not the point, file management in mobile mode and desktop mode is just not the same.

            Sorry, but it is because you’re arguing for the desktop and the desktop does not support this feature! So is relevant to this discussion! Okay, now you’re just being a dick by making up what my point is. My argument has always been about how people would like to have a desktop mode when their tablet gets docked. This argument has not once been about the features Windows lacks.

            It’s really simple, Metro does not automatically mean it supports all mobile functions! You can’t yet have full integration of what is supported on phones with what’s supported for desktops and the Metro version that the full desktop Windows 10 will be using has to be able to work with the desktop! Yeah that’s the current implementation. My bloody argument form the beginning has been why can’t they just have one Windows 10 without splitting into a Mobile SKU and a Desktop SKU. You just said they’re making Windows like this because they decided like this.

            While again, even if they disable the desktop and only enable it when docked it still means you need to go through the trouble of getting a dock and all the accessories that go with it to make that work and would have to be useful enough for that extra effort and costs! That’s just ridiculous. Windows 8 and the 10 preview has allowed you to switch between desktops easily. Now you’re saying this would suck IF they removed that feature… where did they say they’re going to do this? My argument has been giving you the option of switching to desktop mode, not limiting you to any modes at all!

            Wrong, a Android device is still cheaper! Windows device require higher minimum specs but leave less free space and use much more resource hungry apps that makes them less suited for mobile usages! Oh? Is that why the HP Stream has 32gb while the HP Slate 7 only has 8gb of disk space while costing $40 more? You can’t say things without backing up your claims.

            Mobile devices can also use more power efficient and cheaper components, like phone SoCs that integrate most of the hardware into the SoC and leave more space for the battery, etc. to still provide good battery life in even very small device sizes… So… all the current line of Intel windows tablets are just crap with poor battery life and nobody wants them?

            Added costs, the simple fact most people will only use their device as it comes out of the box, the fact people who would go through all that added trouble would also want to make sure it would be worth it… What added costs? An HDMI cable costs less than $5. A keyboard/mouse costs $20. These are things you would buy for any desktop. They’re not specialized hardware accessories just for these desktop/mobile crossover devices. Hell, you can find one of these lying in a bin at home somewhere without buying anything.

            Sorry but you fail to realize the desktop is still not meant for touch, eliminating it’s usefulness on such a small device for anything but when it is docked! Uh…. what!?! I never said desktop is meant for touch. What the shiz are you blabbering about? The old windows mobile devices you mentioned had no metro mode, has no metro apps, has nothing that’s catered to finger control. That’s why I said they weren’t meant for touch devices. Windows 8+ does.

            But I’m going to stop this discussion as it’s clearly not going anywhere. The future isn’t what we decide. We’ll see for ourselves if these devices do start showing up.

          22. How is that an issue if you keep it in mobile view? I never said Windows 10 should be ALL about desktop.

            You’re forgetting that desktop Windows 10 merges most of the Modern and Desktop into one OS! Sure, it can still default to the Metro menu system but there’s a lot more overlap that can’t be just ignored…

            Nevermind, at the very least you’re still going to have to deal with a large installation size for the full desktop Windows 10 that will make it very hard to provide enough free space on a mobile device where large drive capacity is still not a option!

            So you’re ignoring the realities of shoving a full desktop OS onto a mobile device with limited RAM and storage! Even if you could stick to the metro for mobile usage it’s still going to effect other aspects of the device regardless of whether the desktop is active or not…

            The point isn’t about internet calling vs phone calling it’s just about using a Windows device as an audio communication tool.

            Sorry, but you can’t just ignore that there is a difference between communication and having the full functionality of a modern Smart Phone!

            There’s actual hardware support involved for one thing and again, because these devices will be primarily used as mobile devices it means they will be running hardware not meant to run a full desktop OS!

            Windows 10 does not change the fact desktop Apps aren’t meant to run on ARM SoCs… It doesn’t change that a desktop OS requires a lot more resources than a mobile OS to run well…

            While compromising on the mobile functionality can’t be ignored as a price that frankly most people will likely not accept when that’s the main purpose for the device!

            Never mind, if there was ever an emergency and you needed to call/text 911 then nothing short of full phone functionality will do because all the normal PC options for communications can easily be cut off during an emergency!

            So at the very least that makes it a option that not many would be willing to risk…

            Actually, I’m a primary Android user

            Then you should know better! Mobile has it limitations but you’re arguing for a device that will also have limitations!

            Having a desktop doesn’t magically erase those limitations and in many ways adds its own… Sure, Windows 10 is a big step towards a more ideal solution but the market and hardware still impose limitations that the OS and users have to deal with!

            Fact is mobile has evolved quite a bit over the years and that’s going to make the appeal of a Windows device a harder sell… you may not be taking advantage of all the options and you may want to dismiss them but they exist nonetheless and makes the selling point of a Windows device with a desktop mode a harder sell unless it can clearly stand out and be considered worth the extra effort and costs involved…

            That’s not the point, file management in mobile mode and desktop mode is just not the same.

            Irrelevant, for average users it can still get the job done and that’s the point!

            Again, any alternative needs to be able to stand out clearly as a better choice but if it introduces other compromises then it’s not a clearly better choice!

            The desktop needs to be more than just a bonus feature to warrant the added costs and trouble required to support it on a mobile device!

            Oh? Is that why the HP Stream has 32gb while the HP Slate 7 only has
            8gb of disk space while costing $40 more? You can’t say things without
            backing up your claims.

            Tons of better examples, HP are overpriced! Something you should know better than to use as a example!

            Really, where’s the $49 Windows tablets?

            Facts are facts, the Intel SoCs still require subsidizing to be competitive priced with ARM devices but that’s not going to last forever, Intel is losing tons of money right now to keep this up and that’s official!

            It would be even harder to be price competitive with a tablet SoC versus a phone SoC because having most of the system as separate chips costs more than putting in one cheap and fully integrated phone SoC!

            Phone SoCs from MediaTek, Samsung, and Qualcomm can dip below $8… Even the low end Z3735F is a $17 part and doesn’t include the added costs for WiFi, BT, and Cellular Modem!

            While, again, a desktop OS requires a lot more storage and RAM than a mobile OS and that raises the minimum costs for a device running full desktop Windows

            on mobile hardware!

            So… all the current line of Intel windows tablets are just crap?

            No, just not made to be shoved into anything really small and still needs to improve more before they are offered without converting them into what the present Intel Phone SoCs are and eliminate what allows them to run full desktop OS…

            What added costs?

            I made that clear, if you just stop trying to be so stubborn and read!

            Again, a small device would require a dock to make it easy to convert into a desktop setup… This alone can cost hundreds! Especially, because most small devices lack ports and everything is leaning to putting everything on just the USB port and that means you require a adapter for video out, etc and that’s one of the reasons why the docks are still so expensive!

            Even with a HDMI out, you’re still going to need a hub and a docking station is still preferable because this only makes sense if it’s easy for people to connect and disconnect the device and not act like surgery every time they need to set it up…

            And monitors/tvs will cost you more than a keyboard or mouse, never mind still having to pay for cables and setting the whole thing up… So even without an expensive docking station you’re still talking about hundreds on top of the cost of the device…

            Never mind, if a user wants to use the device like a laptop then that means an even more high priced docking option! And it doesn’t help there are no universal standards for such docks…

            Regardless of how easy or hard it is to connect the device to your setup… Mind, if you’re going to constantly remove it and dock it then there’s physical wearing involved as well that could shorten the life of your device…

            Then there’s the simple fact most devices aren’t set up to have a separate charging port and thus charging and usage while docked can’t be done at the same time on most devices and that severely limits usefulness…

            Especially, as using it as a desktop will likely cause it to drain the battery a lot faster than its mobile usage!

            Really, you’ve clearly not thought this through if you’re still having problems understanding this point!

            I never said desktop is meant for touch.

            You’re arguing for the desktop on mobile devices, this should be blatantly clear!

            Point blank, this means there are limitations users of such a device will have to deal with!

            The fact that people using traditional mobile devices won’t have to deal with these limitations actually supports my point!

            Again, who’s going to pay extra for a feature they can’t use unless they get additional accessories and only when they are not being mobile?

            What you have to understand is there are additional costs involved, the device itself will cost more because it needs to be able to run a full desktop OS and do so well enough to be useful… But the technology isn’t there yet to offer that capability without a high premium!

            Then add the costs of all the extras users will have to get to even use that alternative function and then tell them they can’t use it while on the go and see how many people will actually want it when they can just settle for a device that actually lets them use everything on the go and doesn’t require them to tie themselves down to one location for any other usage…

            It’s really a no brainer why they’re doing what they’re doing now… like it or not… we’re still not at the point we can really expect more yet… Give it another year or two before before we can really start complaining…

          23. Lol okay, I think this conversation is long due for a concolusion. We’ll just have to see what the market offers.

          24. Btw, the N2820 is actually more powerful than the Z3735F (not the other way around) and I still wouldn’t use it for any professional Photoshop work!

            The main advantage of the Z3735F is that it’s a quad core and the N2820 is a dual core… Since Bay Trail doesn’t support Hyper Threading means multiple thread processing is limited to the actual number of cores… So for processes of more than 2 then the Z3735F can have a small advantage but most work processing is still single core…

            Never mind, a tablet device would have connected standby enabled… something that can be better for keeping a system up to date and allow for minimal power sipping states for longer battery life but also cripples the desktop…

            A CS enable means features like WakeOnLan won’t work! As soon as the screen goes off with CS it disables the desktop and goes into a hybrid sleep state… So there’s a good chunk of traditional desktop functionality you couldn’t do with a CS enabled device, which would be all mobile devices!

            Passmark for the N2820 is 1003, vs 901 for the Z3735F, anyway! Again, the Z3735F is pretty much the lowest offering overall and has multiple other reasons why it’s really a more stripped down version of the Bay Trail SoC!

            All this versus 3,094 for a Intel Core i5-3317U, just to show how big of a gap between them and what people consider a decent performer…

            Thus you’re really kidding yourself on the capabilities…

            Besides, Gimp mainly just takes a long time to load but is otherwise a pretty easy to run app and in most cases you wouldn’t be using Gimp for professional work usages, it can handle quite a bit but most people wouldn’t use it that way, and you already said you’re only using it for photography work and unless you’re totally altering a photo then that’s well below what professionals would be doing with Photoshop…

            A typical job can have hundreds of layers and constantly working with really big files quickly means you need more than just 2GB of RAM!

            Getting a Windows device with 16GB (WimBoot setup) or even 32GB is like getting a Android device with only 4 to 8GB of storage… People have to do maintenance just to keep updates from using up all the remaining space, let alone install and use desktop apps… and there are plenty of apps that may work with less but for any real work you really need 4GB or more RAM to properly use!

            So even if you discount the lack of performance, the simple fact of the
            matter is these mobile devices aren’t to be offering enough RAM and
            storage anytime soon… leaving the desktop as a secondary consideration
            that comes at a pretty high price given full Windows uses up a lot more
            of the limited resources than a mobile OS would as well…

          25. But again, real Photoshop work accounts for very very few people in a random population. And as I’ve said before, Photoshop runs fine on Z3735F so the benchmark difference doesn’t mean anything.

            Also, if I’m not doing any photo-altering I wouldn’t be using Gimp would I?

          26. And again, there isn’t a real selling point unless you deal with people needing to be really productive… otherwise they’ll just settle for the existing mobile device choices!

          27. Wow, you’ve never seen anyone using a keyboard with a mobile device before?

            The Asus Transformer series started with Android and provided keyboard docks long before the Asus T100 came out, along with all in one PCs with Android modes, and there are a lot of people I know who at least try to use their mobile devices for just about everything they would have probably used a PC for before.

            It may not always be very practical but neither is trying to use a phone as a desktop!

          28. I’m sorry, but you misunderstood the point. It’s not about having a keyboard or not. That’s totally stupid if you think that’s what I meant. It’s about the lack of formatting support on Mobile Office apps.

          29. What are you talking about? Plenty of people use mobile Office apps all the time and have no problems with formating! The only issue is for professionals who need to work with other professionals and need formatting to stay the same but your argument is about regular “average” people who wouldn’t need to worry about that!
            First you go off about typing on touch screens and now you’re trying to deflect with formatting!? Your arguments are getting stranger and stranger with each reply!
            There are journalists who use mobile Office apps for their work! There’s support for users to link their Office 365 account to their mobile device and there are even online access to word. There’s competing Office apps besides just MS Office!
            Adobe has even started offering cloud support for Photoshop CC and is said will expand to their other apps eventually as well!
            I started out not really disagreeing with you, the over hyped limitation of mobile devices was the really the first thing I had to object to, but you really are going off on the deep end with these arguments now!

          30. Chill dude, read what I typed, if it was meant about typing on a touch device, I would not have mentioned a thesis because it wouldn’t matter what I would be typing. Okay fine, maybe I should’ve used the word “write” rather than “type” but in any case, my point was that you really can’t do any serious document generation using a mobile device. Also, why don’t you use a mobile office app and try to make an advertisement with rip-off phone numbers like I mentioned in my original post. You can’t even input a movable textbox that has text on its side. People making a pamphlet to sell their TV on a traffic post. Isn’t this an average use of Microsoft office? Again, try making your resume on a mobile office app. Are you willing to submit that kind of formatting to employers? That’s not a professional requirement, that’s a home use requirement.

            Office on mobile has really been about taking notes even with an attached keyboard. At the end of the day, people still load the file on their desktop and use the full desktop Office to do formatting.

          31. Chill? I’m not the one making obviously misleading comments about mobile devices!

            Companies like Samsung even push multi-windows options for Android now for multi-tasking and provide custom apps to take advantage of it, along with their S-Pen, etc.

            Apple has ported their Pages app for iPad, for some actual layout options where you can actually create newsletters and pamphlets… and Android has had apps like AndrOpen Office for well over a year now that is pretty much a touch enabled version of the desktop Linux version…

            Never mind there are client and cloud services that let mobile users access the full desktop version of apps and they can just add a keyboard, mouse, and external monitor/tv and go at it…

            So you’re understanding of what’s possible on mobile devices is obviously outdated at best… I’m not trying to attack you or anything but what you’re stating is clearly a biased view on mobile devices that clearly exaggerates their shortcommings to apaprently justify your argument and that’s just overreaching and weakens what good points you were making before…

          32. Um yeah I do know about the effort to make mobile more like desktop, but in the end there’s really nothing that matches up to a desktop. That’s why people are still wanting desktop applications. I do know about AndrOpen, but it’s buggy and not officially updated.

            Also, you’ve just argued my point for me. If these companies are implementing this, there’s obviously a need for people to want to use tablets with desktop capabilities. All along I’ve been saying that there is a market for people wanting to run desktop applications on tablet. If there isn’t why is Apple and Samsung making the effort?

          33. Now that’s more reasonable, sure… I think we can agree there’s a need, but the question is whether the compromises are worth it or not?
            For most existing options, people don’t expect much and are usually willing to deal with the compromises but one of the problems Windows has always faced is people tend to expect more from it and when they find they have to deal with limitations in order to use it on a mobile device then opinions have usually been very negative.
            Can you really say this won’t be the case again? Is the Metro even really ready to fulfill people’s mobile needs?
            It’s not like MS has gotten a large share of the mobile market yet, WP only beats out BB and that’s mainly because of how far BB has fallen rather than how well WP has been doing.
            You seem to be of the opinion it can be done and maybe it can but how many examples can you point to with this already being done with existing devices? By average users and not just tech enthusiasts?
            I agree with your basic premise and I prefer options but I’m afraid CyberGusa has the point that the “market and technology” isn’t yet ready for it… maybe they will be, hopefully sooner rather than later, but it seems we will have to wait a bit longer still.

          34. Well, Windows has been plagued by a very bad image from their past failures; IE, Zune, Vista, etc. But it’s not just about Microsoft. The market is about a desktop crossed over with mobile device. The Ubuntu Edge campaign raised 12.8 million dollars in a month and that’s on a mobile UI they have yet to release and a desktop operating system used much less than windows or osx. Even though they didn’t reach their 32 million goal, that’s a heck of a lot of people willing to pay for a product that’s not ready yet or possibly in even a year. The biggest selling point of that was the ability to do desktop work on a mobile phone. I think the market is there. Whether the technology is there depends on what the use cases are. And I honestly think the average use would find it possible to use it on a day to day basis. I often get asked by people saying they want to buy a new laptop but they don’t need anything fancy, they just need to be able to do email and Microsoft Office. Wouldn’t this suffice?

            But maybe some of the things CyberGusa says is right but not about a lack of market. If I were an OEM, I probably wouldn’t want to release a product that’s only suitable for average use. I’d give the option for those power users. That’s why we have those Celeron Chromeboxes but also the option of Core i7 Chromeboxes.

          35. well following your “performance need” oriented argumentation so far – the industry’s line of arguments since netbooks came up btw – i must be be an alien running ALL my scientific windows apps – all so called desktop apps btw – still on first and second generation netbooks without any problems at all. so following your (and the industry’s arguments) all the older and leaner programmed software was not professional and underperformed. let me tell one thing – somebody is telling people the rubbish for years now and producing code hogs only to sell more and more tech needy machines with out actually neither gaining nor providing really more. and let me tell you another thing even very old xp machines with old pentiums are capable to run modern office software without a glitch. but – the truth is – no industry or software giant wants to talk about – all this consumer and web oriented all the time online multimedia and marketing business – meaning what is running through browsers needs this performance. but that is not a question of productivity or professionalism – it is a question of money business. and money business only. and for this – modern consumer mobilephones of any kind give proof of – a desktop mode ain’t necessary at all. therefore it would be honest to admit this as the driving force behind all these decisions and stop this false flag bragging around productivity and such blim blim. and let me add a last thing – it is not up to the it industry to decide if a device is useful for productive usage or not, that is only up to the decision of the user (meaning the buyer) of a device. he defines what productive means in his range, not some arrogant industry guru. in a 30″ year old market users/buyers have become mature enough to know.

          36. Sorry but you really must be a alien then :-p

            Really, though, think this through… A netbook couldn’t even run Photoshop for more than very basic editing… anything that required more resources and performance to run than a word processor and similar apps quickly showed the limitations of netbooks…

            Modern Bay Trail tablets offer two to four times the performance of the old netbooks but even then you won’t be doing anything more than basic editing with Photoshop… as that only raises performance to around the level of a Core 2 Duo processor and is still around 50% less processor efficient than a modern Core processor…

            Even a lower clocked Haswell based Celeron can still outperform a modern Bay Trail…

            It just wouldn’t be as frustrating as it was with netbooks but anything on professional level would simply take too long and require frustration in pushing the limited resources available on a mobile device… Some of the more resource intensive add-ons/plug-ins wouldn’t even run properly without 4GB or more RAM…

            Even web browsing, use a large number of tabs, heavy in media, etc. and you’ll quickly hit the limits of these present devices… It has been long the common opinion that at least 4GB should be the norm but limits on mobile hardware had kept most devices being offered with only 2GB of RAM…

            And let’s be serious and point out that most people won’t be using old programs made for XP and similar old apps on a modern system!

            Most people use much more resource hungry apps these days and the desktop apps aren’t optimized for mobile usage…

            They neither scale well to small screens… most don’t offer touch screen support… and anything approaching real productivity requires a system to have at least more RAM and storage than most mobile devices are configured with…

            RAM, especially, is a limiting factor… Even to do something like running VMs requires enough spare RAM to put aside for each VM you want to run…

            Along with multi-tasking… and even video editing, even with Quick Sync support, you wouldn’t be doing more than basic edits for videos up to 720P but you could pretty much forget doing 1080P… at least without dealing with extra long waits and advance editing would be pretty much be out of the question…

            Really, the people have already made clear what they consider useful and what they don’t!

            Most have stated anything less than a U series Core i5/i7 is not worth their time as far as being productive for work is concerned… thus the main targets of these mobile Windows devices are people seeking casual usages…

            People can settle for a lot less for personal needs and basic usage but then these mobile Windows devices have to compete with the other mobile devices that require less RAM, less storage, etc.

            A android or iOS device with just 16GB of storage will still have more free space than a Windows device with 32GB of storage!

            Really, how many phone size devices you see configured with lots of RAM and storage?

            At the very minimum you’re going to need more than what most phone size devices are configured with to properly run a full desktop… most people don’t want to deal with constantly worrying about running out of storage space, etc…

            And if you’re going to force yourself to use a touch screen on the go then a mobile OS designed for touch screen use is going to be more convenient and easier to use than forcing yourself to use a desktop app on a touch screen…

            So you can add ease of use to the list of reasons as well… and why focusing on mobile for 7″ and smaller makes sense for OEMs right now… Even with Windows 10 making the desktop easier to use with touch doesn’t really change what the apps themselves are optimized for…

            Besides, most people are getting phablets for devices smaller than 8″ as going that small starts to overlap usages with the Smart Phone and it’s easier to carry one device than multiple… thus there’s a market for mobile Windows 10 to target that has very little to do with the rest of the desktop Windows 10 market…

        2. MS isn’t really denying it, the desktop install does support everything from full desktops on down to 7″ devices… it’s really the market and technology is denying it!

          The majority of people aren’t yet demanding UMPC like devices, not enough to pay the premium OEMs will demand to make them anyway… and MS never promised they would cover the entire spectrum with this go at it… Windows 10 was always just the next big step towards full integration but a desktop OS is still too large and bloated to go on very low end devices and most mobile devices are still in the low end!

          The universal apps are really the first things covering nearly the whole range, as they’re the only type of apps being offered that can scale themselves to the device it is being run on but you can’t say the same for the vast majority of legacy desktop apps that were never designed for small devices!

          So let’s have a reality check before overtly criticizing MS here… as much as we may want the desktop on everything it remains that the desktop wasn’t made for everything and the minimum specs of devices still dip too low to ensure support for the desktop on all mobile devices!

          Anyway, like I said before, this doesn’t rule out some company from still trying… Again, the desktop Windows 10 does support devices down to even 7″… it’s just not likely going to be a mainstream product but companies that make niche products do still happen and MS didn’t really rule anything out… just set standards congruent with the present realities of the industry and market… but there is still some flexibility… especially, as they’re not done developing Windows 10 and there are likely still other versions besides just the mobile and desktop version that will be released before all is said and done…

        1. It’s more that they’re keeping a WP type version of the mobile OS… RT is essentially gone except for the tablet support…

          So, for devices running on low end mobile specs and primarily on ARM based systems then they have the mobile Windows 10 to cover them…

          It’ll be a very light OS that will be easy to run on even very low specs… RT was more in the middle and required at least 2GB of RAM and similar amounts of storage requirement as well… but you can put something like WP on a device with only a few GB of storage and only about 512MB of RAM…

          Reality for OEMs is covering mobile devices still means covering low end devices because we can’t yet shove a full PC into a phone without severely throttling performance and/or raising the price crazy high to justify the additional difficulty in making it…

          While 8″ and larger is the more or less agreed upon threshold for minimum desktop usability and for the OEMs to more easily shove the required resources to run a desktop OS into without needing to significantly raise the price and/or severely throttle performance…

          Mind at the threshold between mobile and PC range performance even ARM SoCs are suffering from throttling issues on these small devices… So, we’re not yet at the point they can easily give us a modern day UMPC without still suffering through the same issues that plagued the early UMPCs and ultimately caused them to fail in the market…

    3. The process of doing so will certainly be interesting in getting the awesome user interface with the WIndows 10 Tablets for sure.

  19. You can connect your 7inch windows 10 (x86) to a external monitor and use your desktop. On 7 inch screen, desktop is not usable.

    1. But that’s the thing, if they limit you to not be able to use the desktop mode on a 7 inch, even if you connect to an external monitor, you still won’t be able to use the desktop mode. The OS itself is a different version, it’s not just that it won’t let you use it.

      1. No it is not true. You can’t see desktop on your 7 inch tablet screen but when the screen ( external monitor) is 8 inch or above, desktop is available to use on that screen. Its part of continuum.

        1. Belfiore’s tweets seem to suggest that folks with *existing* 7 inch tablets will get Continuum. But the feature will only be available on 8 inch and larger tablets going forward.

          1. The ZDnet article makes this a bit more clear… for OEMs making devices 7″ and smaller, going forward, they will default to installing the mobile Windows 10 which specifically replaces WP and RT (minus the limited desktop)…

            Optimized to be very light and easy to run, it’s specifically meant for devices with low specs as most mobile range devices are still configured… and most will be ARM based and the Intel versions will likely be the same phone range SoCs they are presently using for Android phones, etc, which aren’t meant to run full Windows either…

            Given the limitations that OEMs still have to deal with on the hardware for devices in these size ranges, it’s not surprising they decided on 8″ being the ideal threshold…

            7″ and smaller they can stick to phone range SoCs and keep specs low… while 8″ and larger gives them enough room to more easily work with higher powered components, offer higher specs, etc. that would be better suited to supporting the desktop, etc…

            It helps that phone range SoCs can be far more fully integrated… the Upcoming Intel SoFIA SoCs, for example, will finally merge the BT, WiFi, and cellular modem into the SoC… Something no tablet and higher range SoC can yet offer…

  20. This is going to end up being more confusing to consumers than the whole Windows RT on the Surface RT vs. x86 Windows on the Surface Pro scenario.

    Windows 10, same OS name, same OS, but different options on nearly identical hardware. eg. 2nd gen HP Stream 7″ and HP Stream 8″ devices. One won’t have a desktop, the other will.

    1. Exactly! I thought they were getting away from that nonsense with this whole “Universal App” business, but now I see they’re just putting a fresh coat of paint on an old idea.

      Remember, Win10 isn’t even released yet, and I’ll honestly be surprised to see it released before the end of this year. I’m pretty sure the closer we get to release, the less and less “universal” their ecosystem will be.

  21. Why limit the options? If I get a windows phone (or small tablet) running an Intel chip then I want a full desktop environment when I connect a monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Then again I want chrome OS when I plug my Android phone in too 🙂

      1. they had a post on here about that thing, it’s not what the people want, we want full windows desktop when we plug in small devices to a big screen AND full desktop for when on the go

        1. I agree I don’t want to take my $400 Thinkpad tablet 10 tablet with me all the time sometimes I just need something small and cheap that i wouldn’t care if i lost it. I think this is happening because some manufacturers are rather blatantly taking advantage for example 7.9 inch screen…

      2. Yes, I actually backed them but it was unsuccessful. I still may buy the app but without the dock it seems a litte silly. Really though I can’t imagine a crowd funded app could be any where near as good as an OS fully supported by a big company like Microsoft or Google.

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