Rikomagic’s latest mini-desktop computer features an Intel Atom x5-Z8300 Cherry Trail quad-core processor, 2GB of RAM, 32GB of storage, and 802.11ac WiFi.
The company sells the MK36S computer with Windows 10 software for about $137. But if you’d prefer a model running Linux, a UK-based store is taking orders for a model that ships with Ubuntu 15.04.
The Rikomagic MK36SLE (Linux Edition) is available from Cloudsto for £115 (about $175) and should begin shipping next week.
Yes, that means you may end up paying more for the model with a free operating system than for one with a Windows license. That’s partly because Cloudsto is based in the UK, where taxes keep prices high. And it’s probably partly due to the amount of work involved in altering the software on the Linux Edition model: even Cloudsto charges £5 (about $8) less for a Windows edition.
It might be worth paying the premium if you really want a functional Ubuntu mini PC in this price range and don’t want to go through the trouble of installing and configuring the software yourself.
Both the Windows and Linux versions of the Rikomagic MK36S feature 10/100 Ethernet, Bluetooth 4.0, three USB 2.0 ports, one USB 3.0 port, HDMI, and a microSD card slot.
Woah
I would not buy, Atom quad core might sound okay
But spend your money on a new laptop, for 25 more dollars will get you a dual core celeron with 4gb of ram and you’ll suffer a lot less in the long run.
Atoms are a nightmare.
I’ve had issues with them.
Celerons include ATOMs these days, so you’d have to be careful which one you get… as for performance, they’re not as bad as they used to be and a quad core can have performance advantage over a dual core when multi-threaded processing is used…
ATOMs are also using the same gen GMA as the Core models, Bay Trail was Gen 7 scaled to 4EUs and Cherry Trail is Gen 8 scaled to a range of 8/12/16 EUs… and next year’s Broxton will use a Gen 9 GPU… So GPU performance is catching up and they’re starting to exceed Core2Duo performance range starting next year as well…
But, yeah, you’d still see a small advantage with a Core based Celeron in general use and especially single core processing…
Woah
I would not buy, Atom quad core might sound okay
But spend your money on a new laptop, for 25 more dollars will get you a dual core celeron with 4gb of ram and you’ll suffer a lot less in the long run.
Atoms are a nightmare.
I’ve had issues with them.
Celerons include ATOMs these days, so you’d have to be careful which one you get… as for performance, they’re not as bad as they used to be and a quad core can have performance advantage over a dual core when multi-threaded processing is used…
ATOMs are also using the same gen GMA as the Core models, Bay Trail was Gen 7 scaled to 4EUs and Cherry Trail is Gen 8 scaled to a range of 8/12/16 EUs… and next year’s Broxton will use a Gen 9 GPU… So GPU performance is catching up and they’re starting to exceed Core2Duo performance range starting next year as well…
But, yeah, you’d still see a small advantage with a Core based Celeron in general use and especially single core processing…
“2GB of RAM, 32GB of storage” This should not be allowed anymore. Is 4GB or RAM and 128GB of storage really THAT much more?
Yep 4GB is minimum, but 64GB is good too. That 32GB is not that bad… it has SD card slot so you can use at least 64GB micro SD card (128GB maybe). What is real problem for me it’s no support for HDMI 2.0 (dumb Intel!). Also Z8300 is not much powerfull. Too slow for mini PC and no HDMI 2.0 for HTPC. I’m still thinking about S905, what I really want is dual boot mini PC (Android/Windows) at least Z8500 (still no HDMI 2.0 :/ )…
These SoC’s officially only support 2/32 as part of their spec. The Chuwi Hi10 unofficially supports 4GB and it was exclaimed to be a great feat since no one else had done it before.
The other issue could be 32bit memory addressing? While these are 64bit processors could the 32bit uefi be a limitation I wonder?
So alas, for Atom based machines we are limited by what Intel states we can have for memory and storage for the near future or until someone breaks the rules.
Generally, the UEFI is tied to the OS… So a 32bit UEFI usually means you have to use a 32bit OS, or at the very least a 32bit boot loader with custom changes to the OS to make it work…
If using Linux, the boot loaders that work with UEFI were primarily made to work with 64bit and that’s what really slowed adoption during Bay Trail as most devices only offered 32bit UEFI but we’re seeing a lot more 64bit UEFI with Cherry Trail devices…
However, it’s not generally a issue for RAM unless you want to use more than 4GB of RAM… 32bit supports up to 4GB of RAM, it’s just not quite as efficient as 64bit and requires reserved memory, etc.
High capacity RAM for LP-DDR3 isn’t generally available yet, so we’ll only see mobile devices with 3-4GB of RAM for now… Many are waiting on LP-DDR4 to start taking over next year before they start offering higher capacities but higher capacity LP-DDR3 RAM should also start being offered to help the transition… This despite most devices already ready to support up to 8GB of RAM and that’ll likely raise to 16GB of RAM by the end of next year, the RAM offered will just lag the support…
“2GB of RAM, 32GB of storage” This should not be allowed anymore. Is 4GB or RAM and 128GB of storage really THAT much more?
Yep 4GB is minimum, but 64GB is good too. That 32GB is not that bad… it has SD card slot so you can use at least 64GB micro SD card (128GB maybe). What is real problem for me it’s no support for HDMI 2.0 (dumb Intel!). Also Z8300 is not much powerfull. Too slow for mini PC and no HDMI 2.0 for HTPC. I’m still thinking about S905, what I really want is dual boot mini PC (Android/Windows) at least Z8500 (still no HDMI 2.0 :/ )…
These SoC’s officially only support 2/32 as part of their spec. The Chuwi Hi10 unofficially supports 4GB and it was exclaimed to be a great feat since no one else had done it before.
The other issue could be 32bit memory addressing? While these are 64bit processors could the 32bit uefi be a limitation I wonder?
So alas, for Atom based machines we are limited by what Intel states we can have for memory and storage for the near future or until someone breaks the rules.
Generally, the UEFI is tied to the OS… So a 32bit UEFI usually means you have to use a 32bit OS, or at the very least a 32bit boot loader with custom changes to the OS to make it work…
If using Linux, the boot loaders that work with UEFI were primarily made to work with 64bit and that’s what really slowed adoption during Bay Trail as most devices only offered 32bit UEFI but we’re seeing a lot more 64bit UEFI with Cherry Trail devices…
However, it’s not generally a issue for RAM unless you want to use more than 4GB of RAM… 32bit supports up to 4GB of RAM, it’s just not quite as efficient as 64bit and requires reserved memory, etc.
High capacity RAM for LP-DDR3 isn’t generally available yet, so we’ll only see mobile devices with 3-4GB of RAM for now… Many are waiting on LP-DDR4 to start taking over next year before they start offering higher capacities but higher capacity LP-DDR3 RAM should also start being offered to help the transition… This despite most devices already ready to support up to 8GB of RAM and that’ll likely raise to 16GB of RAM by the end of next year, the RAM offered will just lag the support…
In my opinion, this is really bad. I have several Linux based machines and all cost less than their equally configured windows counterparts!!.
agree, this is either a bogus pricing, or they must have some sort of weird licensing deal with the supplier( like price include win10 license and other os cost extra to ship)
Read the article, it explains the pricing… Additional charges for services rendered for customizing and setting up… Such customization also opens them up to requiring to provide tech support and part of the cost could be just to cover them on those costs as well, versus letting someone else handle it completely like the distro developers, user forums, etc.
It could also be a matter of quantity for unit pricing, if they expect to sell fewer then fewer get made and that can raise the unit cost… and any additional manual labor required can add up. Along with one time costs if they have nothing set up for this range of devices and thus have to add a investment cost to be covered…
While it’s not unheard of as well because many OEMs can make side deals with others that help reduce their costs but they’re more likely to find these partnerships with Windows based devices but these usually result in what we call bloatware and some would say it’s worth it just to avoid getting that…
Suffice it to say there’s a lot of factors besides just the cost, or lack of, for the OS…
After reading the article an 8th time, I stand by my original post. Thank you.
So you believe in slave labor? Because that’s the only way you’re going to avoid not paying extra for additional labor costs…
omg man…
u r putting words in his mouth.r u just plain gullible?believing what they want you to believe
or just cant think for yourself?
No putting words in anyone’s mouth… Just a logical conclusion of what has been stated… Labor costs and dismissing that means you think people shouldn’t be paid for their work…
You just seem to think there’s some conspiracy going on here but there’s no indication of this… Unless you have some proof otherwise then you’re just speculating and making stuff up to justify your opinion.
Really, you should look up what gullible means because not thinking things through and letting opinion guide you instead of logical reasoning better fits it…
I disagree with most of what u said.
first of all i like to clarify that beside the price, we know next to nothing. many of the reason(including the article and mine) behind the price difference are just conjectures, not evidence-based explanations.
as of unit pricing¸factory price (include services like flashing OSes, but before sofware lincensing) for hw is most likely the same for win or linux devices.
since it is essentially the same workflow to produce the device
i based this on PC/Laptop company that offer both OS, (see DELL for example)
customization & support goes both ways, for windows and linux.
you still need people to ensure you device are stable running any OS, make sure all SW & HW works properly. Company still need to provide support to customer running either.
i would agree on those points if a custom kernel is needed(like many ARMs SOCs), but if AFAIK cherry trail is supported for linux kernel
i agree that some partnership might be involve to reduce cost, hence my statement “weird licensing deal with the supplier”.
yes there might be other factor, in this case however, assuming HW is the same,
it can be a predatory pricing (by the company or windows) and/or Price discrimination practices by the company.
you need to see from all angle, not juz one presented to you.
the process are the same for producing the hardware.
it should also be noted that, rikomagic has a history of selling more
expesive linux box than their android counter part, despite having identical HW, using other people
distro (picuntu on the mk802III)
all that left is the business strategy to explain the pricing. after all its a business and profits is all that matters. mass consumer prefer windows and looks for the most price competitive, “lazy” linux enthusiast willing to pay, so why not charge more.
what i dont like about this is, paying a windows tax, for something i dont use, then pay them more to opt out of the window tax. it is a Opportunistic Pricing ( companies set prices for new product not based on any relationship to
development and manufacturing costs, as in most industries, but rather
based on ever escalating perceptions of “what the market will bear.”)
Sorry but the problem is I do see it from all angles but you’re obviously trying to impose a particular viewpoint and that for all you know doesn’t even apply here…
The Windows tax conspiracy is often overblown and not the actual reason for every instance where you’d have to pay more for a Linux solution…
You can also opt out in most cases without paying extra, so long as you haven’t activated a Windows installation then you can usually just get a refund for it…
Besides, you’re missing where most OEMs are actually imposing perception based pricing practices… Especially, for mobile hardware which this product is using!
Take how eMMC capacities are charged… it’s how most OEMs leverage pricing on mobile devices to get better profit margins. Usually starting with a very low base price but quickly ramping up the cost as the capacity offered is increased. Thus why you’d see $30 on up to $100 extra for each doubling of storage capacity for what most likely only costs the OEMs $8-$16 more.
While the cost of the OS has gone significantly down, especially on mobile devices where Windows can be had for either a very low price of like $15 for just defaulting the search engine to Bing to even free for certain small tablets ranges.
Really, the Cherry Trail SoC is still pretty new… Sure, adoption a lot quicker than it was for Bay Trail, where many had to wait for Kernel support first, and 64bit UEFI is a lot easier for installing and using a Linux distro but there’s likely still needs for things like customizing drivers, etc. that support may not be that good yet.
let me clear a few point for u (u seem to misunderstand)
1.) pneujet only stand by his statement that ” [He has] several Linux based machines and all cost less than their equally configured windows counterparts”
he did not dismiss labour cost. your line of questioning is borderline accusation & our logic is illogical.
put words in (to) someone’s mouth – “to interpret what someone said so that the words mean what you want and not what the speaker wanted.”
2.) Windows tax is not conspiracy. it is unfair for a few of the population (single digit %). it is not a reason for paying more for linux solution (i didnt even say that, i only said i dont like paying more for less and paying for stuff i dont use.)
opting out only exist from a few vendor, as MS dont hadle OEM licenses refund. (first hand exp for IT acquisition)
3.) before i mention about the practices, you said that there are extra labour involve in manufacturing process, when in fact its the same for any OSes in dev and installation (its just flashing hdd and end user installation method is not the same as manufacturer or it support installation) it is extremely inefficient to install 1 pc at 1 work station at 1 time(user-end), when u can just dot for 10 or more pc at 1 work station at 1 time(manufacturer). so labour issue are don’t exist. u dont seems to know about the typical workflows from concept to product. i can explain more this if u wish.
4.) after i mention it, u then change ur line of thinking, but some how still getting it wrong. U seems to think Opportunistic Pricing only apply to HW, infact it also apply to SW, or any product for that matter.
HW is not the only part where manufacturer squeeze extra profits, this has been true in many industry. Greater fool theory, thats why buyer beware, research and find product which has the lowest intrinsic value. in this case its not
5.) sure MS licenses cost alot cheaper than it was in the past (for oems anyways, and free only apply to small tablets). but i still cost more than free FOSS licences. mind u that aside from licences cos there is still dev cost and support, which may studies has shown that linux has a lower operation and deployment cost.
(best example LiMux, since its gov and all related to it are in the public with ease of access. there are other private corporate papers which unless u work there, access are imposible)
6.) drivers excuse are a joke. sure most company produce win driver in the PAST. it can be sum up as, NEW HW = Problem on LINUX and NEW MSos = problem on old HW.
in the past it was a major issue. now it is relatively minor, and now is mostly a non-issue for linux.
stability and customization problems exist in any OS deployment, so same thing could be said for newer MS os, or new any HW. (again read about LiMux)
7.) gullible, can be define as easily trusting, which apply here. and it also can have other meaning, so i understand you misread that part and i should have wrote “naive” instead.
those points show this also shows that ur knowledge and exp is lacking, for u to fully grasp the situation and making a better opinion. might also explain your naivety.
1) This is not what he stated and besides this is assuming all the systems he has ever gotten before never needed to have a custom installation done… Unlike what this article clearly stated as being part of the additional costs involved.
Simply dismissing this off hand can only mean he either doesn’t believe there was any custom work done or refuses to accept that he would have to pay for any additional work rendered.
Thus no putting any words in anyone’s mouth, just logical conclusions for what has actually been stated!
2) Windows tax is a conspiracy theory, anything that’s not consistent and verifiable can not be construed as a fact… especially when there are valid reasons for there to be an actual cost difference, then you’re just assuming a conspiracy is taking place to justify the opinion that there is a so called tax.
While MS would handle it if you purchased the license directly from them, it’s just when dealing with Volume OEM licensing that you then have to deal with the OEM but I’ve found if you’re persistent that pretty much any of them will give you the refund, you just have to annoy them enough…
Besides, very few people can’t make use of Windows in some capacity and with some devices like certain tablets getting the license for free it’s not really much of a issue anymore… I’d worry more about having good driver support so you could install any OS you wanted, along with a unlockable or hybrid firmware…
3) No, it’s not always the same for any OS… Not every OS always has the latest drivers available and/or the OEM requires developing custom in-house drivers.
And not all OEMs will be able or willing to just absorb the additional cost of providing such support… Least of all a niche OEM that is far below the big name OEMs, working with far smaller budgets and resources so more often than not their additional costs get passed on directly to their customers…
This is just how it is for some business and isn’t a conspiracy…
4) No, I do not think opportunist pricing only exists for hardware, I was pointing out that for mobile hardware it’s specifically tends to be the hardware that is causing the opportunistic pricing…
Really, we’re talking about the same platform that OEMs can get Windows license for either a big discount or even for free!
Where do you think there price difference comes from when the OS in both cases are free?
So no, you’re just assuming a opportunistic pricing based on the OS but as pointed out there’s no reason to believe that’s the case here.
5) You’re trying to over simplify but that’s only making you ignore a lot of factors like the license isn’t the only software cost factor to a system… especially OEMs that put on bloatware are already negating the cost for Windows and can even be making a profit because of those 3rd party software deals…
Along with how MS providing support to both the end users and OEMs means lower cost of doing business that you generally don’t see with Linux solutions aside from some like Red Hat that specifically provide such support.
While as I already pointed out this product is specifically using mobile hardware… The Z8300 is a mobile ATOM SoC meant for tablets! The only reason this device may not get a free OS is because it doesn’t have a built in touch screen but otherwise the cost of the OS can be extremely small… and that’s assuming they’re even using a valid copy of W10… not all China OEMs provide a valid licensed copy as part of their cost cutting.
Additionally, whenever a OEM does something custom/in-house then that means the support costs fall directly unto them and that can add even more to the cost of the software, unless they charge for support separately but that’s rarely done and is instead either absorbed as part of the cost of doing business (big companies can do this) or passed on to the cost of the product to the end user…
Mind also that the Z8300 is generally only intended to be configured with 2GB of RAM and that generally means a 32bit UEFI that doesn’t work well with all Linux boot loaders and could be one of the custom work requirements… Just to point out yet another factor you probably didn’t consider…
6) No, they’re a fact of life… Without industry wide support driver support typically lags behind even OSX… Especially for new hardware that just came out this year and can’t just use last years driver support for the previous gen hardware.
It took more than a year before many Linux distros properly supported Bay Trail after it first came out… the adoption of Cherry Trail may be faster but it’s not overnight either… Especially, if you plan on using a distro that isn’t using the latest Kernel that would have been updated for the new platform.
Never mind the performance improvers like Linux 4.1 introduced changes that helped Sped Up Intel Atom SoCs… Mind, the Z8300 is also the lowest end Cherry Trail, so things like making sure users can get the most performance out of it are also reasons to tweak the installation… but many of these changes are pretty recent…
7) I don’t easily trust, I simply analyze logically and let logic guide me to the answer instead of bias and assumptions…
So no, you’ve shown nothing but assumptions and your own personal bias which you are too quick to believe is correct and seems you are of the belief that no other explanation is possible or likely to you when the opposite is far more likely…
1.) yes that what he meant. until pneujet say other than “Linux based machines “
and all cost less than their equally configured windows counterparts”, anything else is assumptions and/or accusations. not logical thinking, it logical falancy and it its an Argument from silence, which then turn to puting words in (to) someone’s mouth
he did not dismiss or refuse anything about additional labour.
article clearly state “probably partly due”, which by no means definitive.
i stated in my 2nd reply, the very first part
“many of the reason(including the article and mine) behind the price
difference are just conjectures, not evidence-based explanations.”
2.) Windows tax is not a conspiracy. not all oem does refund, only recently that some were able to forced them tru long litigation.
persistent annoying doesnt always work.(annoying calls= no real threat. litigation letter = threats)
https://fsfe.org/news/2014/news…
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/…
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets…
https://timesofindia.indiatimes…
it is a[b]CONSISTENT DOCUMENTED FACT[/b].
even u can do it in EU doesnt mean that u can get refund in other part of the world. different law exist elsewhere.
3.) yes it is. tech support for consumer are handled by non tech personel and automated bots using scripts ,based on aggregated solved problems collected and shared by vendors. so for simple support, the cost are are the same running any OS of choices. hw problem handled by in house technician, to test for hardware defects or botched assembly. SW problems are handled differently, like if software arent behaving properly due to hardware / coding. vendors submit a ticket to device manufacturer (intel, atheros,etc…) or devoloper (ms, apache, etc…) to be solved by them. driver issue is not a vendor problem, it is a parts manufacturer responsibility.
like i previously state (again) customization are superficial, it is rarely practised in the consumer industry (especially true for X86). it exist only in the realm of specialized computing, like ARM SOC in the past (now it has been less true), supercomputing, military, aerospace, etc….
every body knows that company dont fork FOSS sofware, unless situation reealy calls for it, as it is expensive. the just tweak on a superficial level.
4.) opportunistic pricing can be the case here. there is precedence of rikomagic taking pictuntu for their andoid HW then charging them more.
windows for OEM have never been free., it certainly can be offset ed but never free for OEM ( save for small tablets) and savings have not been passed to customer as prices are influenced by many factor, which opportunistic pricing and competitive pricing, is a major factor.
i think u still dont quite get opportunistic pricing entirely. simply in has a high intrisic value compared its true value. thats why different brand, despite using the same material and method(SW/HW), can cost differently
it has been highly documented running linux has a lower runing cost and investment needed ( not that im pro linux, im OS agnostic). company support isnt 1 on 1 case basis its hundreds to 1 case basis. support cost = projected sales (not actual sales).
cheery trail support is spearheaded by intel(as previously stated) so, window or linux, in house customization cost relatively small, since no deep customization (custom kernel, special I/O, new sched, etc.) is done. just superficial ones (best cpu gov, thermal control, startup, swapiness etc). drivers support are negligible since all current MAINSTREAM HW support both (albeit few linux driver support a little behind at times)
so, labour is cost the same since the use identical HW and method are the same.
support for linux is cheaper ( since it has lower projected sales, so less on staff tech support).
licence price is cheaper on linux
yes, i didnt consider,since its a non issue. FYI 32bit UEFI have been solve for some time. so why solve a problem that has ben solved. u r basing this on outdated information.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/ind…
dated last yr for image test .https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sou…
opportunistic pricing is a major contributor for linux box (not the only one), no competitor yet.. competitive pricing is in play for win box. just to be clear
5.)I didnt simplify it. its a common practise.ms and linux support has the same mechanism, which a support ticket , based on severity and no of reports, that has a higher priority is processed. Enterprise support has a higher priority than consumer support. thats why system critical driver has never been an issue.
thats why both linux and MS has enterprise level support.
store based in the EU & US must have a legitimate product(including license) b4 being allowed selling the PC. so cloudsto, based in UK for few yrs, do sell authentic license. ur argument does not stand for Chinese oem shipping an invalid free W10 copy, to the US or EU.
passing savings to customer, mostly used as a marketing tool. it plays a smaller role in over all finances and economics. so your statement dont make sense in my POV
6) yes , but only few driver may lag behind other os. it is relative short for major component suplier, release it at the same time, smaller one lags just by weeks. issue only exist in new company which has liitle exp in Linux, which as of now i an extremly short list.
System Critical HW driver issue currently dont exist
1 problem on bay trail took a few months, not a year, because its unique release by intel on their atom line, the 64bit HW on 32bit EFI. it took the community by surprise. work around was quickly available, officially supported in less than 6 months.the bug is juz CD 32bit image that dont include EFI for end user, for IT guys its a non issue, as many pakages their own images for deployment
dont belive me search bug reports for bay trail for ubuntu or fedora, u can only find 1 bug. the media has blown this out of proportion as “no installation can be done:, where infact it more of a packaging image issue rather than a technical one. to get up to date join their mailing list, as it is updated constantly.
it is technical issue in terms of 64bit computing performance, which effect both MS and linux, since neither can take the 64bit processing advantage.
u assume a year because it was release at the end of 2013.
the rest are juz optimization.Linux,/Windows/mac dev does it all the time.
tweaking installation, to get max performace, it is a relatively low resource task, and it is done on any OS deployed. see above superficial tweaking.
7.) logical falancy led to ur answer. ur logic is laughable at best. if this were a court of law, u r claim against pneujet wouldnt even stand for a moment. you reason from Ignorance led u to conclusions with no relevance
i clearly stated those are my opinion.some based on exp, some base on well documented evidence and precedence. while others based on insight in competition business practises and law,. it is accurate and factual.
i gave more reference in every post to back my opinion.
u r the one who made assumptions. “Windows tax is a conspiracy” give me a break. where is your credible sources.
In my opinion, this is really bad. I have several Linux based machines and all cost less than their equally configured windows counterparts!!.
agree, this is either a bogus pricing, or they must have some sort of weird licensing deal with the supplier( like price include win10 license and other os cost extra to ship)
Read the article, it explains the pricing… Additional charges for services rendered for customizing and setting up… Such customization also opens them up to requiring to provide tech support and part of the cost could be just to cover them on those costs as well, versus letting someone else handle it completely like the distro developers, user forums, etc.
It could also be a matter of quantity for unit pricing, if they expect to sell fewer then fewer get made and that can raise the unit cost… and any additional manual labor required can add up. Along with one time costs if they have nothing set up for this range of devices and thus have to add a investment cost to be covered…
While it’s not unheard of as well because many OEMs can make side deals with others that help reduce their costs but they’re more likely to find these partnerships with Windows based devices but these usually result in what we call bloatware and some would say it’s worth it just to avoid getting that…
Suffice it to say there’s a lot of factors besides just the cost, or lack of, for the OS…
After reading the article an 8th time, I stand by my original post. Thank you.
So you believe in slave labor? Because that’s the only way you’re going to avoid not paying extra for additional labor costs…
omg man…
u r putting words in his mouth.r u just plain gullible?believing what they want you to believe
or just cant think for yourself?
No putting words in anyone’s mouth… Just a logical conclusion of what has been stated… Labor costs and dismissing that means you think people shouldn’t be paid for their work…
You just seem to think there’s some conspiracy going on here but there’s no indication of this… Unless you have some proof otherwise then you’re just speculating and making stuff up to justify your opinion.
Really, you should look up what gullible means because not thinking things through and letting opinion guide you instead of logical reasoning better fits it…
I disagree with most of what u said.
first of all i like to clarify that beside the price, we know next to nothing. many of the reason(including the article and mine) behind the price difference are just conjectures, not evidence-based explanations.
as of unit pricing¸factory price (include services like flashing OSes, but before sofware lincensing) for hw is most likely the same for win or linux devices.
since it is essentially the same workflow to produce the device
i based this on PC/Laptop company that offer both OS, (see DELL for example)
customization & support goes both ways, for windows and linux.
you still need people to ensure you device are stable running any OS, make sure all SW & HW works properly. Company still need to provide support to customer running either.
i would agree on those points if a custom kernel is needed(like many ARMs SOCs), but if AFAIK cherry trail is supported for linux kernel
i agree that some partnership might be involve to reduce cost, hence my statement “weird licensing deal with the supplier”.
yes there might be other factor, in this case however, assuming HW is the same,
it can be a predatory pricing (by the company or windows) and/or Price discrimination practices by the company.
you need to see from all angle, not juz one presented to you.
the process are the same for producing the hardware.
it should also be noted that, rikomagic has a history of selling more
expesive linux box than their android counter part, despite having identical HW, using other people
distro (picuntu on the mk802III)
all that left is the business strategy to explain the pricing. after all its a business and profits is all that matters. mass consumer prefer windows and looks for the most price competitive, “lazy” linux enthusiast willing to pay, so why not charge more.
what i dont like about this is, paying a windows tax, for something i dont use, then pay them more to opt out of the window tax. it is a Opportunistic Pricing ( companies set prices for new product not based on any relationship to
development and manufacturing costs, as in most industries, but rather
based on ever escalating perceptions of “what the market will bear.”)
Sorry but the problem is I do see it from all angles but you’re obviously trying to impose a particular viewpoint and that for all you know doesn’t even apply here…
The Windows tax conspiracy is often overblown and not the actual reason for every instance where you’d have to pay more for a Linux solution…
You can also opt out in most cases without paying extra, so long as you haven’t activated a Windows installation then you can usually just get a refund for it…
Besides, you’re missing where most OEMs are actually imposing perception based pricing practices… Especially, for mobile hardware which this product is using!
Take how eMMC capacities are charged… it’s how most OEMs leverage pricing on mobile devices to get better profit margins. Usually starting with a very low base price but quickly ramping up the cost as the capacity offered is increased. Thus why you’d see $30 on up to $100 extra for each doubling of storage capacity for what most likely only costs the OEMs $8-$16 more.
While the cost of the OS has gone significantly down, especially on mobile devices where Windows can be had for either a very low price of like $15 for just defaulting the search engine to Bing to even free for certain small tablets ranges.
Really, the Cherry Trail SoC is still pretty new… Sure, adoption a lot quicker than it was for Bay Trail, where many had to wait for Kernel support first, and 64bit UEFI is a lot easier for installing and using a Linux distro but there’s likely still needs for things like customizing drivers, etc. that support may not be that good yet.
let me clear a few point for u (u seem to misunderstand)
1.) pneujet only stand by his statement that ” [He has] several Linux based machines and all cost less than their equally configured windows counterparts”
he did not dismiss labour cost. your line of questioning is borderline accusation & our logic is illogical.
put words in (to) someone’s mouth – “to interpret what someone said so that the words mean what you want and not what the speaker wanted.”
2.) Windows tax is not conspiracy. it is unfair for a few of the population (single digit %). it is not a reason for paying more for linux solution (i didnt even say that, i only said i dont like paying more for less and paying for stuff i dont use.)
opting out only exist from a few vendor, as MS dont hadle OEM licenses refund. (first hand exp for IT acquisition)
3.) before i mention about the practices, you said that there are extra labour involve in manufacturing process, when in fact its the same for any OSes in dev and installation (its just flashing hdd and end user installation method is not the same as manufacturer or it support installation) it is extremely inefficient to install 1 pc at 1 work station at 1 time(user-end), when u can just dot for 10 or more pc at 1 work station at 1 time(manufacturer). so labour issue are don’t exist. u dont seems to know about the typical workflows from concept to product. i can explain more this if u wish.
4.) after i mention it, u then change ur line of thinking, but some how still getting it wrong. U seems to think Opportunistic Pricing only apply to HW, infact it also apply to SW, or any product for that matter.
HW is not the only part where manufacturer squeeze extra profits, this has been true in many industry. Greater fool theory, thats why buyer beware, research and find product which has the lowest intrinsic value. in this case its not
5.) sure MS licenses cost alot cheaper than it was in the past (for oems anyways, and free only apply to small tablets). but i still cost more than free FOSS licences. mind u that aside from licences cos there is still dev cost and support, which may studies has shown that linux has a lower operation and deployment cost.
(best example LiMux, since its gov and all related to it are in the public with ease of access. there are other private corporate papers which unless u work there, access are imposible)
6.) drivers excuse are a joke. sure most company produce win driver in the PAST. it can be sum up as, NEW HW = Problem on LINUX and NEW MSos = problem on old HW.
in the past it was a major issue. now it is relatively minor, and now is mostly a non-issue for linux.
stability and customization problems exist in any OS deployment, so same thing could be said for newer MS os, or new any HW. (again read about LiMux)
7.) gullible, can be define as easily trusting, which apply here. and it also can have other meaning, so i understand you misread that part and i should have wrote “naive” instead.
those points show this also shows that ur knowledge and exp is lacking, for u to fully grasp the situation and making a better opinion. might also explain your naivety.
1) This is not what he stated and besides this is assuming all the systems he has ever gotten before never needed to have a custom installation done… Unlike what this article clearly stated as being part of the additional costs involved.
Simply dismissing this off hand can only mean he either doesn’t believe there was any custom work done or refuses to accept that he would have to pay for any additional work rendered.
Thus no putting any words in anyone’s mouth, just logical conclusions for what has actually been stated!
2) Windows tax is a conspiracy theory, anything that’s not consistent and verifiable can not be construed as a fact… especially when there are valid reasons for there to be an actual cost difference, then you’re just assuming a conspiracy is taking place to justify the opinion that there is a so called tax.
While MS would handle it if you purchased the license directly from them, it’s just when dealing with Volume OEM licensing that you then have to deal with the OEM but I’ve found if you’re persistent that pretty much any of them will give you the refund, you just have to annoy them enough…
Besides, very few people can’t make use of Windows in some capacity and with some devices like certain tablets getting the license for free it’s not really much of a issue anymore… I’d worry more about having good driver support so you could install any OS you wanted, along with a unlockable or hybrid firmware…
3) No, it’s not always the same for any OS… Not every OS always has the latest drivers available and/or the OEM requires developing custom in-house drivers.
And not all OEMs will be able or willing to just absorb the additional cost of providing such support… Least of all a niche OEM that is far below the big name OEMs, working with far smaller budgets and resources so more often than not their additional costs get passed on directly to their customers…
This is just how it is for some business and isn’t a conspiracy…
4) No, I do not think opportunist pricing only exists for hardware, I was pointing out that for mobile hardware it’s specifically tends to be the hardware that is causing the opportunistic pricing…
Really, we’re talking about the same platform that OEMs can get Windows license for either a big discount or even for free!
Where do you think there price difference comes from when the OS in both cases are free?
So no, you’re just assuming a opportunistic pricing based on the OS but as pointed out there’s no reason to believe that’s the case here.
5) You’re trying to over simplify but that’s only making you ignore a lot of factors like the license isn’t the only software cost factor to a system… especially OEMs that put on bloatware are already negating the cost for Windows and can even be making a profit because of those 3rd party software deals…
Along with how MS providing support to both the end users and OEMs means lower cost of doing business that you generally don’t see with Linux solutions aside from some like Red Hat that specifically provide such support.
While as I already pointed out this product is specifically using mobile hardware… The Z8300 is a mobile ATOM SoC meant for tablets! The only reason this device may not get a free OS is because it doesn’t have a built in touch screen but otherwise the cost of the OS can be extremely small… and that’s assuming they’re even using a valid copy of W10… not all China OEMs provide a valid licensed copy as part of their cost cutting.
Additionally, whenever a OEM does something custom/in-house then that means the support costs fall directly unto them and that can add even more to the cost of the software, unless they charge for support separately but that’s rarely done and is instead either absorbed as part of the cost of doing business (big companies can do this) or passed on to the cost of the product to the end user…
Mind also that the Z8300 is generally only intended to be configured with 2GB of RAM and that generally means a 32bit UEFI that doesn’t work well with all Linux boot loaders and could be one of the custom work requirements… Just to point out yet another factor you probably didn’t consider…
6) No, they’re a fact of life… Without industry wide support driver support typically lags behind even OSX… Especially for new hardware that just came out this year and can’t just use last years driver support for the previous gen hardware.
It took more than a year before many Linux distros properly supported Bay Trail after it first came out… the adoption of Cherry Trail may be faster but it’s not overnight either… Especially, if you plan on using a distro that isn’t using the latest Kernel that would have been updated for the new platform.
Never mind the performance improvers like Linux 4.1 introduced changes that helped Sped Up Intel Atom SoCs… Mind, the Z8300 is also the lowest end Cherry Trail, so things like making sure users can get the most performance out of it are also reasons to tweak the installation… but many of these changes are pretty recent…
7) I don’t easily trust, I simply analyze logically and let logic guide me to the answer instead of bias and assumptions…
So no, you’ve shown nothing but assumptions and your own personal bias which you are too quick to believe is correct and seems you are of the belief that no other explanation is possible or likely to you when the opposite is far more likely…
1.) yes that what he meant. until pneujet say other than “Linux based machines ”
and all cost less than their equally configured windows counterparts”, anything else is assumptions and/or accusations. not logical thinking, it logical falancy and it its an Argument from silence, which then turn to puting words in (to) someone’s mouth
he did not dismiss or refuse anything about additional labour.
article clearly state “probably partly due”, which by no means definitive.
i stated in my 2nd reply, the very first part
“many of the reason(including the article and mine) behind the price
difference are just conjectures, not evidence-based explanations.”
2.) Windows tax is not a conspiracy. not all oem does refund, only recently that some were able to forced them tru long litigation.
persistent annoying doesnt always work.(annoying calls= no real threat. litigation letter = threats)
https://fsfe.org/news/2014/news-20140912-01.en.html
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/09/12/1450236/windows-tax-shot-down-in-italy
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/05/windows-tax-is-50-according-to-dell-linux-pc-pricing/
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/21-year-old-takes-on-HP-for-bundled-OS/articleshow/42279228.cms
it is a[b]CONSISTENT DOCUMENTED FACT[/b].
even u can do it in EU doesnt mean that u can get refund in other part of the world. different law exist elsewhere.
3.) yes it is. tech support for consumer are handled by non tech personel and automated bots using scripts ,based on aggregated solved problems collected and shared by vendors. so for simple support, the cost are are the same running any OS of choices. hw problem handled by in house technician, to test for hardware defects or botched assembly. SW problems are handled differently, like if software arent behaving properly due to hardware / coding. vendors submit a ticket to device manufacturer (intel, atheros,etc…) or devoloper (ms, apache, etc…) to be solved by them. driver issue is not a vendor problem, it is a parts manufacturer responsibility.
like i previously state (again) customization are superficial, it is rarely practised in the consumer industry (especially true for X86). it exist only in the realm of specialized computing, like ARM SOC in the past (now it has been less true), supercomputing, military, aerospace, etc….
every body knows that company dont fork FOSS sofware, unless situation reealy calls for it, as it is expensive. the just tweak on a superficial level.
4.) opportunistic pricing can be the case here. there is precedence of rikomagic taking pictuntu for their andoid HW then charging them more.
windows for OEM have never been free., it certainly can be offset ed but never free for OEM ( save for small tablets) and savings have not been passed to customer as prices are influenced by many factor, which opportunistic pricing and competitive pricing, is a major factor.
i think u still dont quite get opportunistic pricing entirely. simply in has a high intrisic value compared its true value. thats why different brand, despite using the same material and method(SW/HW), can cost differently
it has been highly documented running linux has a lower runing cost and investment needed ( not that im pro linux, im OS agnostic). company support isnt 1 on 1 case basis its hundreds to 1 case basis. support cost = projected sales (not actual sales).
cheery trail support is spearheaded by intel(as previously stated) so, window or linux, in house customization cost relatively small, since no deep customization (custom kernel, special I/O, new sched, etc.) is done. just superficial ones (best cpu gov, thermal control, startup, swapiness etc). drivers support are negligible since all current MAINSTREAM HW support both (albeit few linux driver support a little behind at times)
so, labour is cost the same since the use identical HW and method are the same.
support for linux is cheaper ( since it has lower projected sales, so less on staff tech support).
licence price is cheaper on linux
yes, i didnt consider,since its a non issue. FYI 32bit UEFI have been solve for some time. so why solve a problem that has ben solved. u r basing this on outdated information.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Using_GRUB
dated last yr for image test .https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1341944/comments/7
opportunistic pricing is a major contributor for linux box (not the only one), no competitor yet.. competitive pricing is in play for win box. just to be clear
5.)I didnt simplify it. its a common practise.ms and linux support has the same mechanism, which a support ticket , based on severity and no of reports, that has a higher priority is processed. Enterprise support has a higher priority than consumer support. thats why system critical driver has never been an issue.
thats why both linux and MS has enterprise level support.
store based in the EU & US must have a legitimate product(including license) b4 being allowed selling the PC. so cloudsto, based in UK for few yrs, do sell authentic license. ur argument does not stand for Chinese oem shipping an invalid free W10 copy, to the US or EU.
passing savings to customer, mostly used as a marketing tool. it plays a smaller role in over all finances and economics. so your statement dont make sense in my POV
6) yes , but only few driver may lag behind other os. it is relative short for major component suplier, release it at the same time, smaller one lags just by weeks. issue only exist in new company which has liitle exp in Linux, which as of now i an extremly short list.
System Critical HW driver issue currently dont exist
1 problem on bay trail took a few months, not a year, because its unique release by intel on their atom line, the 64bit HW on 32bit EFI. it took the community by surprise. work around was quickly available, officially supported in less than 6 months.the bug is juz CD 32bit image that dont include EFI for end user, for IT guys its a non issue, as many pakages their own images for deployment
dont belive me search bug reports for bay trail for ubuntu or fedora, u can only find 1 bug. the media has blown this out of proportion as “no installation can be done:, where infact it more of a packaging image issue rather than a technical one. to get up to date join their mailing list, as it is updated constantly.
it is technical issue in terms of 64bit computing performance, which effect both MS and linux, since neither can take the 64bit processing advantage.
u assume a year because it was release at the end of 2013.
the rest are juz optimization.Linux,/Windows/mac dev does it all the time.
tweaking installation, to get max performace, it is a relatively low resource task, and it is done on any OS deployed. see above superficial tweaking.
7.) logical falancy led to ur answer. ur logic is laughable at best. if this were a court of law, u r claim against pneujet wouldnt even stand for a moment. you reason from Ignorance led u to conclusions with no relevance
i clearly stated those are my opinion.some based on exp, some base on well documented evidence and precedence. while others based on insight in competition business practises and law,. it is accurate and factual.
i gave more reference in every post to back my opinion.
u r the one who made assumptions. “Windows tax is a conspiracy” give me a break. where is your credible sources.
1) No, it’s a assumption that a Linux based machines all cost less because there’s a long history of them not for various reasons… Again, it’s logical fallacy to assume a limited experience is automatically the true facts and we just ignore everything else that shows that can’t be consistently true.
And yes, by stating he read the article 8 times and still adhering to the same opinion then that can only mean he either ignores the labor reference or doesn’t think he should have to pay for it and apparently so do you!
It’s one thing to state you never had to pay extra before but it’s another to not recognize when extra costs are involved and not adjust one’s analysis accordingly… refusing to do so is refusing to use logical reasoning in favor of bias!
2) Windows tax is a conspiracy, it was never a consistent factor and anything that can’t be shown consistently is just a theory and not a fact… a fact is verifiable and repeatable, and not just for a niche example that can be the exemption instead of the rule…
What you’re confusing is the belief by you and some others, including some bloggers and tech writers that there is a official tax and thus they describe it as such but you will find no such reference in anything official because it doesn’t really exist in a literal sense…
Like your first link ignored that for years people could get systems with no OS installed and there have been companies selling systems with other OS besides Windows far before that so called court case in Italy, which you assume even applies anywhere else… because again that’s how conspiracy theories work… believers take otherwise unrelated events and use them to try to argue something they believe exists but fail to see that the argument is literally full of holes.
Like the fact the court case was actually a claim that the process for a refund for unwanted Windows licenses was too difficult…. not that it couldn’t be done… The fact that nothing has really changed in over a year says volumes to how this actually effected the market…
Free software is also a misnomer because nothing is really free, it’s more like free as in beer… While free software doesn’t mean the system won’t be locked down and prevent you from easily installing another OS…
Like even many android devices are locked down and not all are easily rootable, and it’s not like you even need to root a Windows system to replace the OS… While alternatives like Apple is even more locked down and mainly gets away with it because as far as Apple is concerned the cost of the OS is covered by the sale of the hardware and thus they don’t have to bother the end user with separating that cost into a separate category to make it stand out…
While anyone wanting tech support like MS provides has to pay a service provider like Red Hat for their Linux installations otherwise they don’t really get any support other than from community support but those kind of support can’t deal with every kind of issue, especially not any dealing with proprietary/closed code…
3) Again, no… It was never that simple for every single system ever produced. Custom installations means you aren’t just flashing a standard installation and calling it a day… It means the company itself has to do custom work on the installation and that means paying people to do the labor…
Not all companies even have the resources to have 3rd parties handle the tech support and there is such a thing as dealing with actual tech experts when getting tech support… Many just limit them to limited number of reps that you have to have your trouble ticket escalated to before you talk to someone who isn’t just a non-tech…
Really, if you think there’s never a tech involved then you have no clue how the system works. Never mind who do you think actually fixes the products when they’re sent in for repairs?
Never mind ignoring the legal aspect because if the company makes custom changes to the product then those changes put the responsibility of the support and thus the cost of that support under the company… They can only avoid that by not doing any custom work but that’s not always a option for Linux because basic generic install isn’t optimal for all system configurations, especially not systems that have to make use of proprietary/closed drivers and other custom support needs.
Some companies also customize the firmware to optimize performance and deal with stability issues, which can be used to differentiate the company products from the competition.
Things like better build quality, rarer and thus more pricey parts, custom work, etc. shows there’s actually a list of reasons why things can cost more than usual and it’s just denial to refuse to accept these things exist…
4) You’re talking about a China company… they have no special dealing with MS and are one of the top software pirates, even after years of crack downs…
Besides, you act as GNU/Linux is easy to run on any hardware without any custom work being done… What the hell do you think the Linaro project has been doing for the last several years?
Android works much easier because its license allows for easy use of proprietary/closed drivers but most GNU/Linux distros are supported by Open Source advocates that leave any working of proprietary/closed code to either end users or OEMs…
There’s also custom work done for making Android and a GNU/Linux run off the same kernel to then run at the same time instead of dual booting… among other examples where extra cost of setup is valid…
It seems you’re just assuming this was never the case but most companies don’t have volunteers for employees and need to actually pay people for work rendered… It’s really silly to assume this is never the case just because most costs can be avoided in a mass production scenario.
5) You did try to over simplify… First not everyone has the same support system, second not everyone has the budget to provide the same level of support as other companies, and third not every product will need the same level of support…
Using tickets is just a tiny part of helping to manage that support system but it is often far more complicated and deals with multiple tiers of support and cost requirements.
So your point of view is frankly short sighted at best, a small company won’t be able to have the flexibility to deal with support costs as well as a big company… This is practically business 101… It’s like saying you can afford a trip to the moon just like any other billionaire when you’re not a billionaire…
Despite all your protests to the contrary the reality is many companies in China don’t work with huge profits… Depending on the specific product they can go as low as pennies worth of profit per product sold and this often means there are many China companies that go out of business, there’s just usually just as many new ones popping up and only certain companies have managed to last a long period but they don’t last by not passing on any costs to the end consumers…
When companies get taxed, for example, they often pass the additional costs to the end consumers… The same is true of many other costs because the company not only needs to make a profit but a big enough one for them to stay in business and have the capital to invest into their next product…
This is the same as in just about any other business… Like did you ever wonder why Organic food costs more? Higher costs are one of the primary reasons…
6) No, not just a few and especially not the proprietary/closed drivers because most GNU/Linux distros are handled by Open Source advocates that won’t work with Closed code… There’s also the issue that without paying the owners of the closed code that it’s extremely hard to backwards engineer the drivers to provide a Open Source alternative, a process that can take up to a couple of years…
Even with companies that provide Linux support, if their drivers are still closed then that means the drivers are not easily optimizable for a given product… Especially for GPU drivers this can be a issue and both Nvidia and AMD can take years before they provide their latest features to their Linux driver support and there can be a world of difference between generic driver support and optimized driver support… and we’re not just talking about performance but also stability and dealing with issues like driver conflicts.
It’s one of the reasons it has been so hard to see wider adoption of GNU/Linux on mobile devices because things like optimizing the OS to be power efficient and take advantage of mobile hardware power saving advantages isn’t normally part of a desktop OS and is why there can be complaints of battery drain issue with a GNU/Linux distro that isn’t optimized for the mobile hardware.
And that’s just one of many examples I can give you…
7) It’s pretty clear I’ve made no logical fallacy other than assuming you would see that logical analysis doesn’t mean posting conspiracy theories and using bias based logic… Logical reasoning means letting the data produce the answers, not guide the data to support your already made conclusions.
Really, you haven’t really addressed anything other than your continued assumption that a company that has nothing to do with MS in a country that could care less about MS is imposing a Windows tax according to you…
Like it or not, not everything that happens in the PC business has to do with MS and there are multiple reasons why Linux hasn’t seen wider adoption in the consumer desktop space in well over a decade…
It’s not like it’s wasn’t possible… Android and Chrome both show that it is…
Really, it’s like complaining about having a product with a higher build quality just because it adds a bit to the cost… Like the article states, it doesn’t mean you have to go buy it but it’s a valid option for people who don’t want to be bothered with configuring and setting up the OS for optimal set up themselves.
Sure, there are people who would prefer to do it all themselves but there are those who want everything out of the box to just work and on the newest mobile hardware that’s not something that can always be covered by a generic purpose installation…
Especially, if they had to deal with issues like 32bit UEFI as then a default installation wouldn’t have worked as most distros made to work with UEFI work with 64bit boot loader that requires working with 64bit UEFI… among multiple other reasons why it would have required custom additional work done to the installation that you would be wrong to simply dismiss just because you’ve never had to deal with mobile hardware before… It’s really not the same as traditional desktop PC hardware…
got deleted couple of times so ill multi post
SHOW ME YOU SOURCE/REFERENCE/PROOF
response to 2). Windows tax not is a conspiracy, a fact that is verifiable and repeatable, see links below
its not “””official tax””” and if you bodred to read the link i provide before it define “””Windows tax””” – the involuntary payment to Microsoft by UK IT EDU agency and FSFE see prev post link and below
in France Portugal and Spain the called it Racket ware
“””you assume even applies anywhere else”””
i wrote specifically that “””even u can do it in EU doesnt mean that u can get refund in other part of the world. different law exist elsewhere.””” which prove other wise. did u even try to read or r u jus ignoring it because it doent fit into your agenda
“””Like the fact the court case was actually a claim that the process for a refund for unwanted Windows licenses was too difficult…. not that it couldn’t be done… The fact that nothing has really changed in over a year says volumes to how this actually effected the market…”””
many parts of the world, without court intervention, couldnt it be done see below.
how it effected the market see below for list of adopters and laws enacted.
now do u understand y persistent annoying doesn’t always work?
“””While anyone wanting tech support like MS provides has to pay a service provider like Red Hat for their Linux installations otherwise they don’t really get any support other than from community support but those kind of support can’t deal with every kind of issue, especially not any dealing with proprietary/closed code…”””
misrepresentation, simply untrue, i told you how it works on system level before. in user level support provided by MS both free and unpaid are the same format forum, voice/text chat explined in the previous post, that u IGNORED AGAIN. where do many yrs old home win7 user ask for help. call MS? u gotta be kidding me.
response 3) 4) explained in previous post that u don’t seem to understand the laws, management practices and the work flows
here is the gist, anything sold in EU/US has gotta be, by law, legit, doesnt matter if it was made in china where they dont deal with MS
most of the time they sent back a device is because of a manufacturing defect. for other problem, have been explained how they work and managed u don’t seem to get. read books about how to plan after-sales support business management. its to long to explain
OS customization are superficial both for win and linux (go ahead check ur laptop and retail win installation box browse tru the regedit)
you can readtru the kernel coding and compare changes for linux if u wish. check intel compute stick with desktops counterparts
“””Things like better build quality, rarer and thus more pricey parts, custom work, etc. shows there’s actually a list of reasons why things can cost more than usual and it’s just denial to refuse to accept these things exist…”””
aside from design standpoint. all of those are false. case point in 2004 desktop assembeled by (HP) and B(DELL) has the same spec (same MB cpu, etc…) the difference juz ion the chasis, simple design.
another recent ones all dell laptop runing Windows(A) cost $50 then their Linux(B) couterpart, running on the same laptop model (see prev links)
another case segate(A) 3tb hdd cost $80 and HGST(B) 3tb cost $64.95,
lets move on the small low volume chinese company
banana pro(A) at release cost $52 (a20soc 1gb ram no rom). cubieboard 2(B) cost 49 at release (a20soc 1gb ram 4gb rom)
A is more expensive than B. why is that?(sarcastically) by your reasoning more labour invloved, better parts, or other bullshit
active in both comunity at the time, i know CBoard BOM is higher in both parst and total cost, but unit move are simmilar. where is the saving passed from BP board, business 101 tought me there is saving i can have. if u really belive saving are always passed to customer, where is it in this case. remember u gotta be consistent
(its down to business strategy, DUH)
for hdd, test has shown otherwise
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-reliability-stats-for-q2-2015/
https://www.amazon.com/SEAGATE-ST3000DM001-3TB-7200-SATA/dp/B0083H08GS/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1450040932&sr=1-8&keywords=seagate+3tb
https://www.amazon.com/HGST-Deskstar-3-5-Inch-7200RPM-Internal/dp/B003GSLDRC/ref=sr_1_5?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1450040904&sr=1-5&keywords=hgst+3tb
Now who is incosistent, naive little boy.
“””Besides, you act as GNU/Linux is easy to run on any hardware without any custom work being done… What the hell do you think the Linaro project has been doing for the last several years?”””
yes as i stated, previously, it is tru on X86, which is this device is based on. intel has great support in linux kernels, drivers and HW compatibility.
linaro is for ARM. google it, dumb-dumb.
“””Android works much easier because its license allows for easy use of proprietary/closed drivers but most GNU/Linux distros are supported by Open Source advocates that leave any working of proprietary/closed code to either end users or OEMs…”””
false statement. (show how little u know about drivers coding)
android driver (HAL) its not the same as Linux driver. some ARM SOC Co. (just arm not X86 as previously stated but u ignored again) provide only android drivers, E.G. Ali semi, spreadtrum, mstar. etc….
https://www.opersys.com/blog/extending-android-hal
“””There’s also custom work done for making Android and a GNU/Linux run off the same kernel to then run at the same time instead of dual booting… among other examples where extra cost of setup is valid…”””
whre is this suposed reference u wrote back ur argument with evidence.
“5) You did try to over simplify… First not everyone has the same support system, second not everyone has the budget to provide the same level of support as other companies, and third not every product will need the same level of support…”
TRUE i did simplify things, but that is for you sake. i also said gguedt u research about the work invloved (i also over to provide detail wokflow). and yes linux has different level of support, which has always been lower than Windows (i also ask u to read about it, which i gues u didnt)