Google’s Chromebooks now make up more half of all devices in US kindergarten through 12th grade classrooms, according to a report from CNBC, citing an analyst from Forrester research.

Just three years ago, Chromebooks had less than a one percent share. Why the big jump? Forrester figures it’s due to a combination of security tools, multi-user support, and low cost.

But not everyone is sold on the idea of using Google’s cloud-based operating system in a classroom setting.

chromebooks

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) recently filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) that could affect Google’s future in education.

According to the EFF, Google tracks students’ browsing activity for non-educational purposes without getting express consent from parents.

The watchdog organization discovered that Google has the ability to track and build behavioral profiles on children as young as seven years old when they go outside of the company’s specific GAFE suite of apps.

Additionally, Chrome sync, which is on by default on all Chromebooks sold to schools, allows Google to track students on other devices (including smartphones, tablets, PCs, and laptops) if they sign in with their Google account via a Chrome browser.

Google published an official response to the complaint, denying any violation of the Student Privacy Pledge, which it signed in January.

Jonathan Rochelle, Director of GAFE, wrote in a blog post that the Core Services provided in GAFE – Gmail, Calendar Classroom, Drive, Docs, Sheets, Slides, Contacts, Groups, Vault, and Hangout – only use students’ personal data for the purpose of allowing them to communicate, collaborate on assignments, and other useful features. He noted that there are no ads in the Core Services and they are not used for advertising purposes.

Rochelle also addressed the Chrome Sync issue by clarifying that the feature is designed to make cross-platform activities easier. The student can pick up where they left off from one computer to the next, with their apps, extensions, bookmarks, and visited webpages already saved.

He went on to say that Chrome Sync strips away information about individual users and only tracks their anonymous activities to improve their services.

In a follow up response, however, the EFF specifically called out the fact that, although Google doesn’t build profiles on students or target ads to them within the GAFE suite of apps, when a student goes to a different Google services, like Google Search, Blogger, Bookmarks, Books, Maps, News, Photos, Google+, and YouTube, the company identifies their activity with their student account and does target ads to them, in at least some of those services.

 

The EFF cites the example of student that was being required to use Chromebooks in school, with no ability to opt-out. The student’s parent felt uncomfortable with his daughter using a device built by an advertisement company.

What do you think? Are Chromebooks a good fit for the classroom? Or are they problematic machines that send students the message that there’s nothing wrong with handing over their personal data to a large corporation?

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131 replies on “Chromebooks in half of all K-12 classroom computers, for better or worse”

  1. WOW!!! YOU are DUMB…

    There is no need to push terabytes of data just to use an app in the cloud. That defeats the entire purpose of a cloud based application. The idea of hosted applications is the same idea as RDP. The SESSION takes place on the server, the client simply views it.

    So if I were running Photoshop as a cloud app, and ended up with a complex layer heavy file that weighs in at say 400mb. It does not mean that I need to UPLOAD or DOWNLOAD that amount of data just to work in the file, because the file was never on my machine to begin with.

    NERSC – BWAHAHAHAHA… AAAAAHHAHAHAHHAHA
    Ok we have reached the end of this discussion. You have now come full circle and completely proven that the only parties NOT able to join the cloud are niche markets. Exactly the opposite of what you originally argued. You know, niche markets like the kind they require access to Cray supercomputers for research. LOL this is just hysterical.

    NO it would not make sense for NERSC to move their operations to Amazons cluster completely.
    The point I made before about using the cluster, is that it opens the door to MORE people. IE people that would never have access to a Cray machine, can now access a comparable system and do so at scale. Is it cheap to do so, no its not. Is it cheaper than trying to buy a Cray supercomputer, hell fuck yes it is.

    Again, tell me what an advanced program is that would prevent companies from moving to the cloud? No never mind, Im done arguing with you, and tired of watching you run in circles.

    BTW a Hybrid cloud solution does not mean that the PC is being used as a stopgap for apps that are not in the cloud.
    A Hybrid cloud setup means that the company has some of its assets on hosted services like say AWS or Rackspace, while the other assets are housed on an internally hosted setup. Generally this is done with sensitive data that the company does not want housed on a 3rd parties hardware. The internal setup is not any different than that 3rd party hosts setup. Here is an example we use. Egnyte is our cloud storage and we run a Hybrid setup with them. We house of of the data on their servers, and other data on our own. It is all accesses seamlessly and the end users would have no signal to tell them that this folder is hosted internally as opposed to this folder that is hosted externally. Thats a hybrid cloud setup.

    Enjoy being ignorantly blissful of your arrogant ineptitude.

    1. There is no need to push terabytes of data just to use an app in the
      cloud. That defeats the entire purpose of a cloud based application.

      Wrong, you need to push terabytes of data just to do anything with the Cloud in general. The idea of hosted applications is not exactly the same as RDP, it’s running of services/applications on systems that may not be physically connected in any way and not just on another system that only the user is remotely connected to… The benefits of Cloud is that it can be scaled up but by how much is limited to how good the infrastructure is that is unfortunately the limiting factor.

      Never mind, even the limited RDP still means you need the bandwidth and costs to cover every single user and that’s for up to billions of users in the world… You obviously don’t have the slightest clue what that entails…

      Really, I’m quoting this and more from official studies done on the subject collecting far more data than you have ever been exposed to and analyzed by experts with more knowledge on the subject than your entire company has… So you’re really just embarrassing yourself and showing how ignorant you really are by refusing to accept what the experts have layed out already…

      And NERSC is just an example, the problem for you is not understanding that this is scale of the cloud needed to be achieved before it even applies to the everyday person…

      Like the Youtube example drawfs the Amazon server example… It takes multiple times more resources to run Youtube as well as it’s run than it would take to run NERSC on the Amazaon servers… The same problem of costs and bandwidth remains and just introducing more servers alone is not going to cut it…

      It’s like electric cars, just having the cars is not going to cut it until the infrastructure is created to support them… People can’t yet go wherever they want with an electric car because they can’t charge it wherever they want and the efficiency and range of the vehicle is still too limited with costs still too high…

      The Cloud is in a similar state, the technology is of course viable but with no universal standards and a still immature infrastructure there’s really nothing that allows it to be expanded for more advance applications except for very limited niches from companies that can afford it and don’t need to work with everyone else yet…

      Until the infrastructure is established then we’re not going to see wider acceptance of the Cloud and until there is wider acceptance of the cloud then developers won’t get serious on developing applications to cover all types of usages, especially not work critical stuff and stuff that would be required for advance education as well… This is where your argument utterly fails to take account and why your opinion is simply wrong…

      Never mind you just showed that you’re not old enough with your rather naive argument because if you were really as old as you claim then you would know what computing power people need is constantly increasing… We have more computing power now in a Smart Watch than NASA had going to the Moon and despite the increase slowing right now it’d still increasing…

      Services like Siri already require Super Computer scale performance just handling the shear number of things it has to handle for its users… multiple platforms are working towards being able to work with each other, etc. all of which is just putting more and more load onto the networks…

      Besides Cloud isn’t limited to just stuff running on servers… You really have shown you have no idea what you’re talking about if you really have no idea what the Cloud actually means to anything more than your one company… Then how can you expect to know how it applies to anyone else then?

      Never mind you’re inability to understand what advance studies means for the next generation… Basic computing programming, engineering, science, etc is all advancing to a new level that requires dealing with far more computing power than we had to worry about in our days…

      Other countries are being more serious on this subject, introducing the building blocks of next gen technology to schools at much earlier ages than we do and they’ll likely end up being far more competitive than we can be going forward… There’s already a shortage of skilled labor in this country as it is and you want to continue with the failed policies we’ve instituted so far just because you can’t understand the limitations they work under right now?

      Even comparing a PET computer from the 80’s to a modern Chromebook should give you some idea of how things have advanced and that the next gen will have to deal with even more advance technology and not all of that work is going to be handled by the technology itself…

      It’s shocking short sighted of you to even suggest the cloud is ready when it can’t even completely cover your basic needs completely…

      So please save your condescending attitude for yourself, you’ve failed in every way to make a valid argument and are just clinging to your erroneous beliefs to the bitter end…

      1. So please save your condescending attitude for yourself, you’ve failed in every way to make a valid argument and are just clinging to your erroneous beliefs to the bitter end…

        Yes, because we run 80% of our applications through the cloud. I must have forgotten that I live in an alternate universe though. You are argueing with someone that uses, supports and maintains the setup you are saying just can not exist.

        BYE BYE

        1. Why is it that you fanboys always argue like it’s either all against or all for you?

          No one is saying nothing can be done with the Cloud, but there’s a very real big difference from what your company is doing and what actually applies to everyone else… never mind you never once address the simple fact that the developers aren’t developing anything advance for the vast majority of users…

          Google tried to get them started with the first Pixel laptop but that failed, so you’ve been talking total nonsense from the get go because you want to confuse what some niche applications for some companies that don’t even apply to anyone else…

          Can anyone use a Chromebook for any serious business uses? No… There are not even the apps to even try, let alone any hardware powerful enough unless a user created their own Chrome OS PC but that would be pointless without the apps to use… Never mind for students with far more advance needs than a business user…

          Even the merger with Android won’t even change this because there’s no advance apps for Android either…

          Really, nonsense after nonsense with you… So go away already, I already pointed out you were wasting our time and now everyone knows to some degree by just how much!

          1. LOL you again… Im a fanboy again too it seems. I was actually unaware that I could be a fanboy for a product sector, and not just a product.

            What part of Chromebook is not the ONLY example of Cloud usage do you not get? Your arguments are always so all over the place.

            Ok lets sum this up into a simple 2 part question and see if you can answer it.

            What is an Advanced App?
            Does the lack of this app have ANYTHING to do with what normal people would need on a daily bases to perform their business function?
            IE does your Advanced App only fall into the niche market sector?

            You keep on saying that the cloud is not ready for normal business usage, and justify that by stating that Advanced Apps are not available? Then you go on to give the example of Physicists needing access to a Cray Supercomputer for an example.

            Then you give some off the wall logic about how chromebooks are not powerful enough to do anything advanced. Which is completely absurd, because processing power at the local user level is exactly the OPPOSITE of the purpose of SaaS. In a cloud hosted application, the processing power and bandwidth are all utilizing the backend. The end user simply interfaces with it, utilizing minimal bandwidth and minimal cpu power locally.

            Users in a modern business setting will interface with only a handful of apps everyday. The MS Office suite of apps (available in the cloud), One of the many parts of SAP (cloud based), a CRM (Saleforce now dominates this, oh its cloud based), a handful of random programs (alternatives a-plenty on the cloud).

            The only sections of the company I work for now, and the past two that I did, that can not run off the cloud yet are the art departments. Adobe CC and others are not there yet, but its obvious that Adobe already has this planned for the near future. The point though, is that these sections of the business are smaller, unless your company is strictly a production house.
            So again what part of normal business usage is it that is not ready for the cloud?

            Your arguments all seem to be based at the consumer level. You dont seem to have any actual knowledge past there. For example you keep on pointing to the Chomestore, as if its the only repo for cloud software.

            Im happy to be a “fanboy” if the alternative here is ignorant.

          2. You were a fanboy the moment you used hype as a argument and strayed away from any real world facts… Pretending you’re not at this point is rather pointless as you’ve proven it several times over already and it’s fanboy logic that’s ignorant. So don’t even try to weasel your way out of that one…

            While what part of the cloud for the general user are you not getting? It doesn’t matter what your company applies for the cloud if it doesn’t apply to anyone outside of the company or even to their immediate partners. Nor does it matter if what your company does with the cloud if it doesn’t apply to anything else and your so called 80% is just other people’s 10%… Really, the arrogance you have shown is beyond redemption at this point.

            I already pointed out that’s like the 1% stating just because they have the resources and can benefit early from emerging technologies doesn’t mean that it’s somehow relevant to the other 99% of the population.

            Really, you can try to spin and even outright mislead all you want but the reality is apparent to anyone willing to actually look it up…

            Your company isn’t even known for the Cloud versus say Google and they’ve scaled back efforts because it’s clear it will take a long time before things change enough…

            First Google tried the Pixel laptop to get developers to get started developing for the Cloud and the day people have more performance at their fingertips but that failed because again apparently everyone but you knows that the Cloud isn’t going to change overnight and advance usages aren’t going to be widely available until much later…

            Now Google didn’t even bother to put Chrome on the latest Pixel C, instead putting Android and pushing towards a hybrid solution instead of a cloud based solution that Chrome was pushing for and if they do merge Chrome with Android and drop Chrome’s Cloud emphasis as it is for Chromebooks then that can even be considered a step back for the cloud.

            This and literally hundreds of thousands of other examples are all readily available for anyone to look up and yet here you are still trying to pretend this isn’t blatantly obvious by now that the cloud isn’t going to just take off in the next several years… People aren’t going to be able to look for cloud only solutions except for certain niches and the hybrid solutions will prevail for well over a decade before we finally have the infrastructure needed to finally take it to the next step and really benefit from the clouds potential…

            Right now you’re an early adopter who’s singing the praise of the technology and glorifying the early benefits but it’s not facing reality to make it seem like it’s ready for the big leagues…

            Even companies like yours is only using the cloud to augment how they work but that’s a far cry from what would be needed to provide what would really be needed in everything from advance school courses to actual Enterprise level businesses and industries that aren’t limited to just basic support needs and doesn’t cost so much that only companies and rich people can really have access…
            So no, you’re not fooling anyone and every failed attempt to do so only further discredits you…

          3. ANNNNDDDDD He fails to actually answer the question. SHOCKED!

            We are an enterprise level business, but what do I know compared to the kid arguing me from his parents basement… I just guessing of course.

            All of our distribution partners and other 3rd party contractors use our cloud based SaaS setup, so not sure what you are mumbling about.

            None of this costs as much as you think it does. Small businesses can and are switching to cloud based assets all the time now. Cloud adoption for small business in the US is sitting at 37% as of today, and forecasted to be at 78% by 2020. Guess all those small business are just loaded. https://www.forbes.com/sites/louiscolumbus/2015/05/04/roundup-of-small-medium-business-cloud-computing-forecasts-and-market-estimates-2015/

            The “big leagues” are the ones that have already moved the majority of the infrastructure to the cloud. See once again you keep changing your argument. A second ago its only those with money that can afford it, now its not even ready for them. Make up your mind kid, you can argue from both sides. You can blabber on like a troll about how Im discrediting myself, but I can at least keep my argument straight.

          4. Sorry but the shocking thing is you seem to think there’s anything left to answer… I stated from the beginning that the answers are already available for anyone to look up… You failed to do even a basic search for any facts.

            And you keep failing to put anything in perspective like the same Forbes article points out that…

            Nearly half (43%) of small business owners use a smartphone as the primary device to run their operations.

            Pointing out that the cloud they’re referring to isn’t covering everything nor does wider number of companies using cloud mean anything besides wider adoption… It won’t change what they’re using it for now for example… In five years time you will still be using a hybrid solution for your company and so will most of those others.

            And the estimate they’re providing is including other lack luster adoption of the cloud including social media… None of which addresses the actual point of this discussion concerning whether the cloud can fulfill all people’s needs and the simple fact they’ll still be using hybrid solution 5 years from now proves that won’t happen any time soon.

            You also fail to realize they’re providing an optimistic forecast based on the last 5 years that only resulted in a mere 40% increase, which is only about a 8% increase per year… this despite billions being spent each year.

            While if you look at the source link that Forbes used to provide the data, it shows that…

            Most of this growth is driven by wireline and wireless data services.

            A point you seem to keep on ignoring…

            TOTAL Telecom spending in the U.S. by SMBs will reach $157 billion this year

            Showing clearly that infrastructure is tied to the expect growth, but as already pointed out before such infrastructure is still over a decade from significantly changing what’s possible…

            They’re just really only catching up to what has already been done… 4G/LTE is finally phasing out the older networks and the success of mobile market is allowing for specific types of growth but again, not in the direction needed for what we were originally discussing about schools and the cloud being ready to support advance courses and advance business needs.

            So no, I’m the only one who has kept on the mark about our discussion… You’re the one who has tried to spin the facts to try to make a false point… Nice try though…

          5. Here is Bluegrapes comment that started this chain.

            …a few years from now more companies will be transferring their programs to the “cloud” which can be accessed from a ipad. I think windows popularity will just keep going down a couple years from now.

            Here is your response…

            Think more like a decade or two… the infrastructure for Cloud services will still take that long to really be in a position to take over traditional computing needs for all…

            Here is my opening response to you in this chain.

            With that said, you are on crack!First off, the majority of services WILL without a doubt be cloud based by the end of this decade.

            Firstly you padded your argument just to make a claim against his opinion. You threw the words “for all” right at the end, which actually has nothing to do with his comment, and is exactly why I ignored it to being with in my response.

            There is nothing in your arguments ANYwhere that disproves the fact that business both small and large is moving to the cloud. There is NOTHING you have said that proves in any way that any of this is wrong.

            We are seeing a big shift RIGHT NOW for both large and small businesses moving to the cloud, with each stating that they plan on devoting more company resources towards expanding their usage over the next 5 years.

            Stop talking about SMB spending for telecom access, its a diluted topic that has many OTHER factors that you cant always predict. Like for instance the growing number of businesses switching over to softphone’s. Or the fact that small businesses are finally learning that business grade cable, is not that much cheaper than switching to a bonded T1,2,or 3 and plan on upgrading. Because a growing company needs more bandwidth, cloud access or not.
            Additionally you keep on failing to grasp that super high bandwidth is NOT NEEDED AT THE END USER SIDE for cloud to be practical. Thats needed at the server side. Most small businesses will likely NOT take the hybrid approach because its not as attractive for them financially. IE moving to a hosted setup saves money that would have to be spent on on-premise servers and additional bandwidth to become a HOST.

            E-mail/collaboration software (63%), Web/e-commerce (55%), office tools & productivity (56%) are the three most common cloud apps SMBs are planning to adopt next 12 months.

            Its funny but this all sounds like the main software that the majority of all business run on. Its really funny that you argued elsewhere that this exact type of software is not ready for use.

            You can keep on believing that by 2020 most of us still wont be able to live happily on just the cloud. Small and large businesses will without a doubt be able to live almost completely on the cloud. So it seems that for most of us you will simply just be wrong.

            Will there still be people that need a PC by 2020? Sure of course their will, I NEVER claimed that there wouldn’t be. I will be one of them.

            Good bye troll
            You can reply if you want by I wont be responding to your BS any longer.

          6. That’s funny, a troll trying to call someone else a troll…

            Let’s make it clear that you can’t even read to save your life… First, the quote you’re trying to use clearly shows the claim was made that the Cloud will cover the majority of services… It’s really semantics arguing whether that means most or all as it’s meant in the same way.

            While the context was specifically in replacing traditional computing solutions when the very first statement was making the claim that Windows would continue to lose popularity in favor of cloud solutions.

            So no, you fail again at trying to make a point by instead proving my point!

            Second, I repeated showed this will not be the case… You tried for example to pretend infrastructure would have nothing to do with the cloud and that bandwidth is not a issue and I showed you repeatedly, including with links, never mind making the point there’s a lot more data out there for anyone to look up to further back it, that infrastructure is vital for the cloud and eventually putting it in a position that it can really take over the majority of services…

            This is really common sense because you can’t deploy anything to the majority of users without first establishing a comprehensive infrastructure that can handle what would be required to support such services… all services that are intended for wide spread usage require infrastructure, especially to provide anything beyond basics.

            As it is, even big name companies are spending billions a year just to expand and built that infrastructure… The Telecom industry alone has spent over 157 Billion is just the last few years… So let’s not pretend you didn’t blatantly get that detail wrong.

            All of which goes with everything else stated, like nothing you stated ever addressed the actual services being rendered. Instead you tried to spin the fact the cloud gets used at all as proof that it can already provide services but the point was from the start whether or not it can take over from traditional solutions and not just supplement or augment it…

            Sure, I can put in more time and give you a comprehensive list of things but that’s not the point… It’s the fact there are things at all that already prove my point and even every link you provided supports this showing they will not be providing advance services to the majority of people in just a few years, but rather it’s the growth of the infrastructure that they’re really talking about and that needs to take place before the services can be provided.

            While it doesn’t help you don’t even know how much hype you are working from… Like you already tried to portray Gartner as being a reliable indicator of market trends but they don’t have an actual track record to show this…

            Like wide Scale deep cloud adoption has not reached its % deployment and ubiquity predictions from 5 years ago. Especially predictions like Gartner’s 2010 view that 20-30% of IT shops in 2015 would own no assets and deliver all technologies via cloud…. Never mind the 2012 prediction that we would see the Cloud and mobile devices take over from PC’s by 2014… Painting a optimistic picture of how things will progress is frankly part of what they do!

            It’s like saying you wired your building for intercoms but try to argue that means you already have telecommunications before phone lines were established so you could actually make calls beyond your own network… or that the World Wide Web could even exist before there was actually a world wide network for it to work on… Real world invariably has to be dealt with in all the costs and things that need to be accomplished before a goal can actually be realized and understand that more often than not that progress gets delayed…

            Like Intel spent hundreds of billions but they’re still over 5 years behind their original time table predictions… and that’s just one company, who usually doesn’t have many set backs, never mind all the others and like a caravan train progress ultimately is paced by the rate the whole group can go…

            You can’t even seem to understand that each user can require GB of data be transferred each day and multiply that by the majority of users and you’d need more bandwidth than exists today… It’s one of the reasons they keep on down scaling so called unlimited data plans and cloud storage options and why they still charge a high premium for extra capacity.

            Never mind you need a lot of bandwidth speed to be able to work with GB of data and not have it take way too long to be practical for the typical user.

            It’s one thing to have the cloud store your back ups and files you want to share but it’s another for doing actual work and even creating content… Just to be able to video edit takes a lot of bandwidth, let alone anything more advance.

            You’re also ignoring how the potential of the cloud is crippled without a better infrastructure, limiting how such applications like using the cloud to pool computing performance to do things like turn spare CPU cycles into something usable for work, or scaling of applications to handle both small and large scale projects that can operate over multiple countries.

            It’s not like traditional PC is standing still either and you also ignore that is yet another factor that holds the Cloud back as it’ll eventually have to offer more than is possible with traditional solutions…

            Sure, there are specific things that the cloud is better at already but these aren’t comprehensive or wide spread enough to state they will take over when as it is they’re still hybrid solutions.

            Chromebooks themselves aren’t strictly cloud solutions, since it was introduced when the cloud was even more limited than it is now and thus they quickly gave it offline capabilities and thus it’s more a hybrid solution as well…

            The failure to see any of this and far more that I haven’t even listed is your failure and why you are the real troll here because you only argued the hype and you’re the one trying to use insults to make argument.

            So, again, you’re not fooling anyone except maybe yourself…

          7. Had to get that last word in hu troll?

            BTW you should stop giving examples when you dont fully understand the concepts at hand.

  2. So you can use Chromebooks and Google Docs with Google having access to student data, or you can use Windows and Office 365 and have Microsoft and criminals, thanks to over 30 million malware definitions, with access to all student data. Between Microsoft and Google, only Microsoft has been caught reading through personally identifiable information. Truth be told, I trust them both equally, but the malware issue should keep every K-12 school district from giving Windows devices to students.

  3. I love my Chromebook. It has 8 hours of battery life, it’s thin, it’s light, it’s fanless, it’s silent, it DOES NOT run Windows 8 Metro Tiles, it cost less than $250 and it still works great after 3 years.

    1. But ChromeOS launches things by icons too… Windows 10 brings back the list menu (which AFAIK ChromeOS doesn’t have). If it’s “live” tiles you don’t like, switch them off.

      My T100 has 10 hours of battery life, is thin, light, fanless, silent, and my Windows laptops last a lot more than 3 years. It costs more than the cheapest Chromebook, though it’s also a 2-in-1, and I don’t mind paying more for more functionality and being able to run more than a web browser.

      Don’t get me wrong, I think Chromebooks are a great option, but the things you list aren’t unique to ChromeOS.

  4. I think schools should be using the OS students will run into outside of school. That OS is Windows. Students trained to use a Chromebook will have to re-learn how to use Windows once they start college if they expect to be able to do their assignments. K-12 schools using Chromebooks is penny wise and pound stupid, they are placing their students at a distinct disadvantage when they enroll in college or enter the working world (I don’t know of very many companies using Chromebooks other than Google itself) and find out they don’t know the slightest thing about Windows and need to take an extra class or two just to learn how to use a computer in the working world.

    1. If it’s that hard to figure out how to use Windows or Office having used ChromeOS then you really probably shouldn’t be in college. And thinking that training kids today in Windows so they will be prepared to use what is common in ‘the world’ in 10 or more years is just silly.
      In the end computer and internet usage skills are highly transferable. It would be like saying teaching people to drive a Chevy won’t work out because they might end up driving a Ford.

      1. I mostly agree, but not all skills are highly transferable as software can have widely different ways in which they are designed and how they get things done. So that can cause a significant learning curve that not everyone can, at least quickly and conveniently, overcome without at least some issues…

        It’s more like driving a golf cart and then expecting that someone to know how to operate a Crane… Knowing basics doesn’t always translate and doesn’t cover more complex operations…

        1. Mehhh, not really.
          Take a look at the trend in GUI development today. You should see that most software is heading to a single UI format for their wares no matter the platform.

          For specialized software, ok sure. Something like learning how to do video editing in an Adobe Premier and then needing to relearn how to do it in Apple’s Final Cut would be an example of this, but those are specialized jobs, and uses in these fields are use to the idea of learning how to work the new wheel someone just invented.

          Its by no means indicative of the software that most people will use.

          1. Multiple solutions is still different GUI… and there are plenty of specialized in real world work that isn’t going to just go away…

        2. I’d agree my Chevy to Ford analogy is too simplistic. However I think the golf cart to crane analogy is too extreme. The idea of the cloud should not be new to anyone at this point. It’s really about the names and locations of tools within the word processors and spreadsheets. And while that might present an additional challenge it really shouldn’t be anything a college student shouldn’t be able to overcome.
          The paradigm of Google Docs is actually completely different in that it doesn’t exist as a file type you can locally hold. But in practice it makes little difference as you can readily localize into common file types such as pdf or even doc.

          1. The idea of Cloud isn’t new but it’s full potential is still years away from being fully realized. This is like going back to when the first glimmer of the Internet was first realized in a lab compared to what it is now but realizing it still took decades for it to get to this point.

            Things like Unlimited storage doesn’t yet exist, it’s only marketing at this point and they always have to pull back from offering as much as people may actually want… The same with what features and capabilities of what can be offered over the cloud, which doesn’t just give you remote access to a traditional desktop but actually runs a cloud based computing service…

            Meanwhile people’s storage needs keep on growing over time, and while computer performance need isn’t increasing over time like it used to, people are still going to steadily need more and more performance over time as they keep on inventing new things to apply them to… Like augmented reality and other things that weren’t practical before but are becoming possible now… So it’s a goal mark that keeps on moving and Cloud computing is thus still playing catch up…

            Along with technical limitations like actual bandwidth is still well below what we actually need for providing everyone, not just a percentage of the population, with all their computing needs via the cloud and there are still places in the world where you still can’t get either good Internet access or any access at all…

            Breakthroughs like IoT becoming embedded in our everyday life still needs to come to realization, among many other hurdles that still need to be overcome before the Cloud can truly start replacing traditional computing and even exceeding it…

            This is especially true for people who have to deal with older hardware or hardware that isn’t designed for Cloud based usage… Never mind issues like whether end users can actually own software they buy anymore with cloud based business models that turns everything into a service that you rent/subscribe to… or the new security concerns because cloud means hackers can attack your data 24/7 as it’s on the cloud where it’s running 24/7 and never truly isolated… Along with the cost as once you start including pro programs/apps that can be run over the Cloud then you’re usually also paying a premium service that not everyone can afford…

            Really, I can list a lot of things for all the reasons why we still have a very long time to wait for Cloud computing to be considered seriously beyond providing alternative options and augmenting what can be done with traditional systems… Beyond what a Chromebook can do we’re still a long way from fully replacing a traditional PC…

            Google wouldn’t even be considering merging Chrome with Android and providing it native app and offline functionality if the Cloud was truly ready but it’s clearly not and no amount of enthusiasm is going to make that change any faster than it has been going…

    2. I’m in college and except for one class i have with a windows exclusive program (which works fine in wine) you don’t need Windows AT ALL.

      And a few years from now more companies will be transfering their programs to the “cloud” which can be accessed from a ipad. I think windows popularity will just keep going down a couple years from now.

      1. Think more like a decade or two… the infrastructure for Cloud services will still take that long to really be in a position to take over traditional computing needs for all…

        Till then people will still rely on traditional PC’s… Sure, cloud services will continue to increase but bandwidth, capacity, etc. will still keep them as a secondary and auxiliary role for most users and that’s not even counting the security and privacy concerns with most hacks and malware targeting servers and massive data breaches…

        There’s also the app gap, as Chrome, Android, etc. doesn’t really have any serious productivity apps meant for serious work and this is as hard, if not harder, than the issue MS has trying to cover the app gap for the non-productivity consumption range apps that are popular for Chrome, Android, iOS, etc.

        And this is all besides the reality of market shares, the moment you go beyond mobile usages the majority switches to a heavy Windows majority of over 80% for all PC users… So pretending that no one needs Windows is just denial, even if it may be true for you…

        So things are hardly as obvious and already determined as you seem to think…

        1. HAHAHA, sorry dont mean to go at you again. I promise Im not singling you out.

          With that said, you are on crack!
          First off, the majority of services WILL without a doubt be cloud based by the end of this decade. There are several very obvious advantages to it, most importantly being a damn fine way to kill software piracy. I had this same argument about a year after ChromeOS was released with people saying the same thing. I made a bet that we would see Photoshop as a cloud based service within two years, adobe was faster than I thought. With the addition of OpenGL rendering baked into chrome, we even have some admittedly mediocre 3d Development applications. If you think Adobe is going to stop at Crome, Ill make a bet with you right now, that they open up the Streaming Photoshop and other CS products, for all major browsers before then end of the decade.

          Bandwidth, ok maybe in the US, but even that is changing now. However, the US is not the end all be all of technology, and its not the only target demographic for companies hosting cloud services like Google, Amazon and MS. Most of the developed and hell developing world have more than enough bandwidth to make the jump right now, if the infrastructure was in place. Stop thinking domestically, start thinking about products globally. If the providers in the US cant keep up with new product paradigms the rest of the world is adopting, they will be forced to make changes domestically.

          Already more than have the crap we do on the most popular computers today (mobile) are through hosted services. This is a segment of technology that is moving at a blistering pace, and consumers are becoming more accepting of it, and acknowledging its very real benefits.

          Market share. The simple fact is that Windows will likely continue to dominate the market share for at least the next 10 years. This has nothing to do with product acceptance or cloud based computing limitations.
          No, this has everything to do with the fact that large global companies still have Windows Server as the backbone of their domains. Its easy for a startup or even a large domestic company to start making changes to their technology workforce. Its quite another thing to ask a multinational to grab the e-break and do a 180 on its infrastructure.

          What I can tell you though is that products such as Dell’s Project Ophelia, will become something we see more and more with these companies. This is essentially their own internally hosted cloud computing platform, mostly based on terminal services. A thin client on super steroids in layman’s terms.
          As you said though, network security is becoming a very real concern for these companies. Did you know starting salary for entry level network security is 80k? We will eventually see these big guys come to the realization that farming their server workload out to 3rd parties like Google, Amazon and a host of new comers that make it their BUSINESS to keep data secure, is a benefit, not a security risk.

          1. The only one on crack would be you, Cloud isn’t going to advance anywhere near as fast as you think it will… Fact is people have been making claims like you have for over a decade and advancement is still going at a snail’s pace…

            The reality is what it is, like it or not… Cloud has its limitations, and many of the advancements are still in the beta stages. It’s just the way it is and covering basics doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near ready to cover the more advance stuff…

          2. You know, I keep giving you examples of how it is advancing and not at a snail’s pace and all you keep saying is “nope you are wrong because I say so!”.

            You have to give some sort of evidence to back your claims, because as its stands now, half the crap you a spouting I know for a fact to be dead wrong. I know it because I work in the sector, and already implement and support it.
            What is your background that helps bolster your claims.

            Here have a look because I dont think you actually understand what all is covered by cloud computing and how large is ALREADY IS.
            https://www.forbes.com/sites/louiscolumbus/2015/09/27/roundup-of-cloud-computing-forecasts-and-market-estimates-q3-update-2015/

            The headlines alone are pretty much proof you have no clue what you are talking about.

            The global SaaS market is projected to grow from $49B in 2015 to $67B in 2018, attaining a CAGR of 8.14%.
            Global spending on Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS) is expected to reach $16.5B this year, an increase of 32.8% from 2014.
            Cloud applications will account for 90% of worldwide mobile data traffic by 2019, compared to 81% at the end of last year.

          3. No, you haven’t given any examples of where it’s advancing because every example you gave just ignored the problems with them and pretended they’re equal to the traditional solutions when they’re not!

            Does everyone have the bandwidth needed to bring unfettered cloud computing to the masses?… No!

            Does everyone provide cloud services for everyone’s needs yet?… No!

            You’re interpretation of the Forbes article is also misleading… First, they’re really only talking about “mobile data traffic” and second you’re obviously ignoring this part…

            The study found low-maturity or lagging cloud adopters focus on costs more than growth.

            Even the mature enterprises are only addressing the aspect of the cloud that helps them with “sales channels”…

            So you really should take off the rose colored glasses… Sure, there’s potential but we’re a long, long, long way from it being fully realized…

          4. Good job cherry picking the article and not actually reading it.
            I hate discussing things with people like you. I give you cold hard stats and you dont read the article to see if you might be wrong and maybe learn something.
            Instead you skim it to find one thing to continue supporting your own narrow minded argument.

            Thats one graph out of 10 talking about network utilization.

            How about these gems.

            64% of Small & Medium Businesses (SMBs) are already using cloud-based apps, with average adoption being 3 apps. 78% of businesses indicate that they are considering purchasing new solutions in the next 2-3 years creating the potential to move the average number of applications used to 7, with 88% consuming at least one service.

            Global spending on Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS) is expected to reach almost US$16.5B this year, an increase of 32.8% from 2014. Gartner projects the market will reach a 29.1% a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) from 2014 to 2019, Source: Gartner Says Worldwide Cloud Infrastructure-as-a-Service Spending to Grow 32.8 Percent in 2015

            Global spending on Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS) is expected to reach almost US$16.5B this year, an increase of 32.8% from 2014. Gartner projects the market will reach a 29.1% a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) from 2014 to 2019, Source: Gartner Says Worldwide Cloud Infrastructure-as-a-Service Spending to Grow 32.8 Percent in 2015

            Worldwide spending on enterprise application software will grow 7.5% to reach $149.9B in 2015, increasing to more than $201B in 2019 with accelerating cloud adoption driving new software sales. Gartner’s analysis of enterprise software spending shows that alternative consumption models to traditional on-premises licenses are accounting for more than 50% of new software implementations; these include SaaS, hosted license, on-premises subscriptions and open source. Gartner also predicts that by 2020, about a quarter of organizations in emerging regions will run their core CRM systems in the cloud, up from around 10 percent in 2012. Source: Gartner Says Modernization and Digital Transformation Projects Are Behind Growth in Enterprise Application Software Market.

            Public Cloud Services in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) are projected to reach $386M in 2015 with SaaS being the largest area of spending (69.0%). Source: SaaS Will Take Nearly 70% of Public Cloud Market in CEE in 2015.

            Since you obviously do not understand what SaaS is, ill try to break it down for you. SaaS stands for software as a service. This is cloud hosted application suites. You know the very thing you say is not happening at any appreciable level in the market.

            46% of surveyed firms in the European Union (EU) are using advanced cloud services relating to financial and accounting software applications, customer relationship management or to the use of computing power to run business applications. In 2014, almost twice as many firms used public cloud servers (12%) versus private cloud servers (7%). The following graphic illustrates the degree of dependence on cloud computing, by economic activity, EU-28, 2014. Source: Eurostat Statistics Explained. Cloud computing – statistics on the use by enterprises.

            Oh, here is the section you quoted, kind of. You know, the one where you posted only part of the quote and then completely misinterpreted its meaning.

            The more experienced an enterprise is with cloud computing the more likely they are to rely on cloud-based apps and platforms toboost customer demand strategies (50%). The Economist Intelligence Unit study (in conjunction with IBM) found that the most cloud-mature enterprises also invest the heaviest in expanding their sales channels (39%). Conversely low maturity enterprises are fixated on improving internal business-process efficiency (41%) and reducing costs and/or liabilities (38%). Source: Mapping the cloud maturity curve: Measuring organizational excellence in the new era of IT. (free, no opt-in, 19 pp.) . The full study, Mapping The Cloud Maturity Curve, can be found here.

            What this actually means is that companies that have already invested heavily in cloud infrastructure (mature), have already reaped the financial benefits of doing so. Continued future investments in this area are focusing on external sources of profit that can be made by taking advantage of the services.
            Conversely, the ones that have NOT yet spent the money updating their infrastructure, are seen to be spending the money on moving it to the cloud services, where they will reap the benefits of lower cost and better stability. So basically you should really NOT have chosen this one to cherry pick, as it basically proves that you dont have any clue at all what you are talking about. Isn’t your sphincter muscle tire yet? You sure are doing a lot of talking out of your ass.

          5. Good job cherry picking the article and not actually reading it.

            Sorry but that’s what you did, ignoring that they’re focused on mobile and the actual applications aren’t replacing the core business that traditional PC solutions still dominate.

            Small and Medium Businesses are also mostly not Enterprise… There are small businesses still using Windows 2000 and XP.

            So let’s not pretend you weren’t only focused on the promotional/hype of the article and ignoring how it actually applies to the real world.

            Yes, global spending is up but most of that barely covers advancing the networks slowly over years and decades… Like just covering wireless for perspective, despite all the years that have passed there are still old 3G networks around and places where 4G/LTE doesn’t yet exist… Let alone the time it will take to upgrade the infrastructure again to 5G… and the wireless network will still be slower than Ethernet…

            What is needed is the direct fiber access that universities and government has set up… Once everyone has that then the cloud can easily take over but you’re crazy if you think that’s going to happen any time soon…

            Sure, the hard lines can offer more but with most people using mobile devices it’s the wirelss network that matters.

            Really, you’re obviously trying really hard but you’re only showing how little thought you actually put into this because you’re obviously invested in wanting to believe things are further along than they really are…

            Rosy articles are par the course but if you’re really as old as you suggest you are then you should have long realized that those predictions predominantly fall far short…

            Like anything else dealing with the future, predictions beyond the next month are little more than speculation and history shows us that expectations should be tempered with real world issues that slows things down…

            For example, if Intel was on time with their scheduled roll out of new chips we would have had Skylake nearly two years ago instead of it coming out now… Delays happen, real world gets in the way of dreams, etc.

            Really, if things were half as far along as you are trying to argue they are then we would already be having far more adoption of Cloud computing than we are… things like IoT wouldn’t be advancing at just a snail pace, Chromebooks would account for more than 6-7% of the PC market, cloud computing companies wouldn’t be failing as often as they are, device performance would already be a declining factor, we wouldn’t still be seeing a growth in personal drive storage sales, it wouldn’t be a question of whether traditional PC or Cloud computing is cheaper solution for all, etc.

            So spin it anyway you want but it remains that you’re just in denial and don’t want to accept that things aren’t as rosy yet as you’re suggesting they are for cloud computing…

          6. Ok you are dumb as a box of bricks and your head is obviously just as hard.

            None of this stuff you are spouting has much impact on what I am talking about. It honestly looks like you are grasping at straws at this point.

            Small business does not matter to much, and large software companies does not give a rats ass about these users. If they are still running win2000, then that only proves they wont upgrade until it causes a their business to tank or take a nasty profit hit when it eventually fails on them and it will. I know these business types because I worked for them earlier in my carrier. They mean nothing in this discussion and ARE at this point a niche in the global scene.

            You dont need global fiber to have SaaS take over. You just need internet. Why do you keep on assuming that SaaS is such a bandwidth hog. RDP is generally speaking a larger bandwidth consumer, that has been part of business use forever now. You should start thinking of SaaS as very much like RDP or terminal services. Basically the core software is in place (browser with extensions) and instructions are sent on what to display on the users screen. All the major bandwidth consumption and processing is handled off-site. The actual bandwidth used by the end user is minimal.

            We have a huge adoption of the cloud. I really dont think you understand how much of the software and services the world uses daily is a cloud service.
            You dont need a cloud device to use cloud services, you do realize that right?

            Either way, Im done talking to you. You are about as ignorant a person as imaginable.

          7. Ok you are dumb as a box of bricks and your head is obviously just as hard

            That’s obviously not true as everything I’ve stated is true and based on facts… You just don’t like having the cold hard reality pointed out to you…

            And no, you’re the one who should be having his head examined if you think I’m still using Windows 2000… I just pointed out that there are small businesses that still use old software and that’s another fact you can look up too!

            Why the hell do you think MS is still willing to offer support for say XP, just for a fee, if there wasn’t still a lot of users still out there willing to pay for the support?

            Really, you need to stop assuming you have everything figured out because you’ve let yourself become blinded by your personal bias and stopped critically analyzing.

            So no, as much as you may wish it I’m far from being a ignorant person and you’re only discrediting yourself by insisting on such silly things like that…

          8. bla bla bla… you are still an ignorant idiot that has no clue what he is talking about.

          9. Again, exactly what a troll would say… lol, you certainly like to self destruct spectacularly…

          10. bla bla bla… except now Im a troll? Hahaha, trolls dont provide evidence to their claim. Kind of like you not providing any evidence, just a bunch of hot air.

            Here is some more evidence that you are talking above your paygrade. Im sure you will scream at me, from under the sand, repeating the same bs you keep saying over and over, as if it somehow becomes true the more you say it.

            https://protonet.info/en/blog/youre-falling-into-the-cloud-and-you-dont-know-it-3-things-you-should-ask-yourself/

            https://www.theverge.com/sponsored/8909261/the-demand-for-skilled-tech-pros-is-greater-than-ever

            Here is a good one for you, because you dont seem to actually understand what cloud computing is.

            https://explainingcomputers.com/cloud.html

            Again, you can keep on believing that cloud computing is some thing that is off in the future or pie in the sky if you want. The real FACT though is that its already here, we already use it in our daily lives, most of us use it more than standard local computing, and its already taken over

            I know you think you are right, and that you are smarter than anyone here, but you ARE very much talking above your paygrade. In fact Im curious, what exactly is your background that makes you such an expert on this subject?

          11. You must really think everyone is a idiot if you think posting hype articles that try to turn a mountain out of a mole hill of progress is translating to big changes in the market… Never mind resorting to pointless name calling and outright insults are the behavior of a troll!

            You might as well argue that the Windows Phone market grew 150%… So using your logic they’re well on their way to becoming a valid alternative platform but this ignore the reality that they still represent less than 5% of the market and even if they maintain that growth it will take decades before they become a significant percentage.

            Again, I already pointed out Chromebooks only account for 6-7% of the PC market and has seen very slow growth the last few years… So you’re basically using fanboy arguments trying to spin the facts to make them sound much better than they actually are and blatantly ignoring everything that points to that not being true…

            Take the fact that as of the end of 2010, the market has known that Open standards for the cloud are still a decade away. Showing that standards to facilitate managing across competing platforms are still many years away… This is from Benjamin Grubin, director of data center management solutions and product marketing at Novell, btw. So there’s no coordinated effort to expand and grow the Cloud market, just a general chaos of give and take with some progress but also regression when companies fail…

            When every hypervisor has its own API, and each vendor has its own myopic
            vision of a world that will eventually standardize on their design. Private cloud architectures will proliferate and move into the mainstream well before truly inter-operable standards come online. So the steps needed to be taken to push Cloud computing into a bigger role than it is now is simply a struggle at best right now.

            With the cloud, the need for expertise is even more pronounced. Planning, building, deploying, maintaining and upgrading a cloud environment is no easy feat, and most companies lack the time and in-house expertise to accomplish all of these steps… Sure, 3rd party companies have helped address this but combine this with the lack of universal standards and it’s a uphill battle and all the investment we’re seeing now isn’t all going to just advance and grow the Cloud but a lot is just going to establishing the infrastructure to make future growth possible but that’s all going to take a lot of time…

            If you actually bothered to keep track of companies attempting to provide cloud computing services then it’s pretty obvious that they either charge too much for the average person to use their services or the company eventually goes under and closes its doors.

            Instead you insist on this pie in the sky mentality that only the meager progress that’s been accomplished over the last decade should be looked at and never put into perspective on how it actually compares to the rest of the market and how far it still has to go to really present a viable alternative for anything more than basic or just augmenting the options traditional solutions provide.

            I also repeatedly pointed out the multiple flaws in logic you presented when trying to only look at the limitations on traditional PC solutions and failing to see that the Cloud doesn’t cure them all and brings in new limitations… while conversely also trying to make it seem construe that my arguments are about just about everything else than they actually are, like suggesting I’m only looking at hardware when I’ve repeatedly referred to software… I just include hardware in how everything can actually run and pointed out that the Cloud still uses hardware, just not local hardware…

            Never mind the practicality of actually offering cloud computing to everyone is still decades away, just like the many years it will take before everyone can have high bandwidth connections and not have to pay high premiums for the services.

            Really, with 90% going to mobile, as you’re own link pointed out… The majority of applications aren’t high end and most companies are still using remote desktop like solutions to fill in the gaps that the Cloud can’t yet cover…

            Sure, there’s some basic services you can get for free now but anything serious quickly goes into the pay for category and even the free stuff mostly just uses alternate revenue models like from ads and selling user data to make the company money.

            You only have to pay attention to the news to see that there are fairly regular data breaches, which primarily target Cloud and other databases that are accessible from the Internet… To see that the Cloud brings its own new threats and limitations.

            Never mind, I again re-iterate that everything I’m referring to can be be looked up to verify… Here’s just one of many examples, since you’re too lazy or in such denial that you won’t even use the a search engine…

            https://www.virtualization.net/639-stevens-says-evolution-cloud-computing-decades-away-video/

            Here’s just a fraction of things you could have looked up just on the effects of technology on education when it is obviously not applied properly…

            https://www.cbsnews.com/news/high-school-students-sat-scores-continue-to-slip/

            https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/back-to-school/laptops-in-class-lowers-students-grades-canadian-study/article13759430/

            https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100618170920.htm

            https://mashable.com/2007/05/14/google-dumber/#z0rjajSPkgqd

            There’s tons and tons of data that proves my point if you weren’t so busy trying to insult me…

          12. LOL… So you point out an article that is from 2010, stating decades away. BWAHAHAHAHA… Good job there. We are already more than half way through that first decade and already we are seeing the coalescence of standards, and of the companies that are going to be providing them. One of the last articles i sent you showed that. Steve, who is no longer with RedHat, has no incentive to talk openly about distributed computing, because at the time, and at present Redhat is behind the curve in its offerings.
            She even kind of politely calls him on that fact.

            Then Novell, also from 2010. Just like you keep saying where estimates for arrival are often put off by unforeseen events, well it happens the other way around as well. Sometimes technology jumps and advancements happen at a quicker pace than expected. Poor RIM knows this all too well.
            Additionally the two examples you bring up here are both from the open source world. Im assuming your a fan of it considering some of your other talking points with other people here. With that said, you should be willing to admit that as good as open source is, it DOES advance at a slower pace traditionally. Thats with good reason too. They just cant always compete with some advancements when closed source companies like MS and VMWare are through mountains of cash into R&D on the same advancements.
            This is what you are talking about when you say OPEN STANDARDS.

            Why do you keep pointing at the Chomebook’s market share being 7% as some type of evidence of cloud computing being tiny.
            Again, for the 10th time, cloud computing does not need a cloudOS based computer. One has nothing to do with the other.
            Chomebooks simply benefit from the fact that Cloud Infrastructure is on the rise, and most of the major software out there now as a Cloud based version or a new Cloud based alternative. Thats it, nothing more intricate than that simple point. ChromeOS market share means nothing, stop pointing it out. I dont care if Google folds ChromeOS tomorrow, it will not change this argument, because Im not arguing for ChromeOS. Im arguing with you for distributed cloud computing in general.

            The lack of a universal standard or open standards is the very reason why we are seeing a coalescence around closed standard established brands like MS. Before taking my current job, I worked for a smaller company in my town that provided these services. VMWare setups, hosted services, Azure, ect… This company has now tripled in size and profits, all while maintaining a growing happy customer base. It was not an easy sell, because moving to hosted solutions and cloud options is an upfront investment, that pays off over time, as opposed to constantly shelling out smaller sums of money.
            Not one of these companies was bankrupted by their transition and most have halved their yearly IT costs. Again, I just dont think you have any real experience in this field, and you are making speculations.

            AGain with the damn bandwidth argument. You are like a dog with a god damn bone, I swear. Look, you do not need fiber to use cloud managed systems at a business. You do need a highspeed internet connection, but thats it. When is the last time you ran into a business running off a dial up connection. Sure their are going to be some businesses that exist in the “last mile” that cant take advantage of this, but that is not near enough common to use it as an excuse for why its not feasible.

            As I stated we run cloud systems, and have multiple offices in every state. Most of the smaller offices run off of cable internet. We dont have bandwidth issues with our software.

            Again, its not decades away. We ALL use it right now in our everyday lives. 80% of the software on your phone is take advantage of cloud based infrastructures for its backend.

            As for the educational links, I dont really care, because I was never actually debating this with you. I think you have me confused with someone else.

            So again, give me some evidence that cloud computing is decades away.
            Not open standards in cloud computing, just cloud computing used by users and companies.
            This time try to give me an article that isnt more than half a decade old.

          13. I have given you multiple evidence that the level of cloud computing you’re arguing for is still decades away…

            The obvious examples is the simple fact the infrastructure is not there yet and it will take decades to build it!

            The second obvious example is the fact there are no universal standards… This means no pooling of resources and lots of wasted effort that will only slow advancement and growth… along with meaning that there will be solutions that can may become popular but still disappear later for a variety of reasons so even a given advancement may not be accumulative and in the evolution of cloud computing will only result in dead ends… All of which means it takes even longer to get the desired point…

            Your own articles point to the fact that Cloud Computing is still limited enough that over 90% of it is being applied mainly to the mobile market and sales channels… Things like real time translations are still a evolving technology for the Cloud that will take years longer to perfect, along with multiple other examples…

            A simple check of what few companies offer pro level Cloud computing services show they charge too much for it to be a practical solution for everyone and they wouldn’t have the actual bandwidth to support everyone for over a decade anyway…

            Networking as a service (NaaS) exists because Cloud computing needs bandwidth to be practical but until the infrastructure is built the existing infrastructure resources have to be budgeted at high premiums mainly to those who can afford them… Keeping many of the higher potential usages of Cloud computing out of most people’s reach until it all eventually gets cheaper but that won’t be for many years from now after the infrastructure is advanced to a far better state than it is now…

            https://cloudtweaks.com/2013/10/cloud-computing-bottleneck-the-bandwidth-problem/

            We wouldn’t have ongoing business/government arguments like “Fair-Share” for what would be Fair Bandwidth allocation for Cloud Computing if bandwidth and thus infrastructure wasn’t a issue…

            The concept of Cloud Computing actually goes all the way back to the 1950’s but it didn’t become a viable option until the Internet started to provide usable bandwidth during the 90’s and it’s growth since then has been pretty closely tied to the growth of that infrastructure…

            All of this and far more is easily and readily available for anyone to look up from market statistics and studies done over the last few years to what the actual industry leaders have been stating for years now… People like you simply have not been listening!

            Gartner latest rosy predictions still puts it at 2-5 years before Cloud computing is no longer considered a “emerging technology that is- essentially- in its infancy.” and finally become a force in the mainstream market…

            https://www.divvycloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/emergingtechnologies.png

            And that’s just for Hybrid Cloud… Full Cloud will take even longer! Never mind Gartner has a tendency to over promise on their prediction and it usually takes longer…

            Sure, publicly a lot of people have a growing positive view on Cloud Computing but besides he infrastructure and standardization issues there’s also the company IT’s dragging their feet…

            https://www.cio.com/article/2375736/cloud-computing/has-cloud-computing-been-a-failed-revolution.html

            While even those that do try have had public relations disasters when their service fails…

            https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/16/cloud_computing_is_fail_and_heres_why/

            And there’s still examples like the following that are still happening, like when MS reduced it’s OneDrive storage capacities, among other examples…

            https://www.zdnet.com/article/cloud-failure-and-the-flight-to-amazon/

            https://www.channelbiz.co.uk/2015/12/01/business-should-also-review-cloud-storage-costs-after-cma-acts/

            Really, if you bother to look it’s all there…

          14. Man your story keeps on changing…
            First cloud computing is two decades away, now its full cloud computing.

            Im over talking with you, you cant keep your own ideas straight long enough to hold a solid debate.

            Again, what do you do for a living.
            What is your background that makes you and expert on this subject. Hell not even an expert but more knowledgeable that someone that works in the field you are trying to say does not exist.

            NaaS, is no different than any of the other networking resource management setups that came before it. Yes it did come about due to distributed computing, but not because its more bandwidth intensive, but because what it is managing is different and more complex.

            If bandwidth is such an issue, why is 90% of it going to mobile, which has one of the most limited bandwidths out of the possible devices?

            I like how any blog you point to is an obvius truth, but Gartner, is always a rosey pie in the sky sharliton. Like it or not, they are a gauge that many business work from.

            Gartner latest rosy predictions still puts it at 2-5 years before Cloud computing is no longer considered a “emerging technology that is- essentially- in its infancy.” and finally become a force in the mainstream market…

            This is funny because thats exactly the timeframe I stated.

            Im done with you kid. Yes Im calling you a kid again, because I know you are one.

          15. Man your story keeps on changing… First cloud computing is two decades away, now its full cloud computing.

            Nope, you just keep on refusing to listen and keep on trying to re-interpret everything to still cling to the false hope you can keep on pretending you haven’t just been fooling yourself all this time but you clearly have…

            You tried to suggest Cloud is already ready to serve advance needs… This is clearly not the case as has been proven ad nauseum now…

            Now you’re trying to suggest you suggested a more reasonable time frame when your argument was nothing of the kind because you never accepted the simple fact the time frame you’re arguing for doesn’t include applying the Cloud to cover advance needs!

            Gartner flat out stated that the cloud is still considered in its “infancy”!!! Can you stop being obtuse long enough to let that seep in?

            You also showed how little you know by suggesting bandwidth wasn’t a issue with the Cloud but the fact is they’re tied by the proverbial hip and the infrastructure is not only not ready yet but it’s fragmented with no universal standards…

            So no, I’m done with you… you’re the one who has refused to accept the facts… You even tried to pretend the facts didn’t exist by simply refusing to look them up yourself but that’s the laziest of arguments when it’s so easy to look up such facts…

            Your entire argument was based on a false understanding of where the market stands and how fast it’s going to advance…

            Going mainstream for example doesn’t mean a product or service will be able to cover all needs… Apple’s OSX is considered mainstream but its market share is no better than Chromebooks, Apple actually makes over 2/3 of their profits from iOS these days, and it lacks customization options offered by other PC solutions and has certain limitations that keep it from getting a larger market share…

            So long as the cloud lacks infrastructure and remains niche, fragmented, generally divided then progress is going to be slow even when it finally reaches mainstream and you’re not going to immediately see advance usages supported.

            I can really go on for over a hour on how many things you’re getting wrong in this conversation and I’ve proven it more than enough to show this to be a forgone conclusion now.

            Like it or not this is just the cold hard reality of the how the cloud is developing… Beyond all the hype and dreams of potential…

            Really, you can’t be expected to be taken seriously when you won’t even address the high cost that any serious Cloud application still calls for…

            So pretend none of this true if you want, pretend like a child that I’m just some kid who doesn’t know any better, but you won’t be fooling anyone but yourself at this point.

            Like do you even have a clue how many times Gartner has been wrong?

            “October 18, 2006 – Gartner: Apple should quit hardware business”

            Or how quickly they can change their predictions?

            “March 2, 2009 – Gartner Says PC Industry Will Suffer Sharpest Unit Decline in History in 2009”

            To…

            “November 23, 2009 – Gartner Says Worldwide PC Shipments to Grow 2.8 Percent in 2009, but PC Revenue to Decline 11 Percent”

            With the final result being a 28% increase from 2008…

            So, have complete and total faith in them if you want but your business is going to suffer when invariably they make a wrong prediction and your company makes the wrong move based on it…

          16. Oh Hey twat…

            Like I said before… What do you do for a living? What background or education or job experience lets you state these things as if you know what you are talking about. I do work in this industry and have for almost 20 years now. I currently work for a multinational, that has replaced almost all its conventional software with cloud based assets. We run a mixed cloud environment if you are interested. I can tell you that I have no fears of this investment bankrupting our company, because its not near a large enough investment of the companies funds to cause any worry. Do we still use traditional software, sure of course we do, never said we didnt. What I did say was that 80% of our workforce could make it through a workday on a chomebook without issue. Do they want to? NO not when the other option is a Macbook or Thinkpad.

            Yes I did say that Cloud can and does already serve advanced needs and advanced applications. I said that because it does. I even gave you a perfect example in Sage vs Salesforce. Sage is an old school host on your own BCM, Salesforce is a cloud based BCM. There are plenty of other examples as well, but you are so good at Googling that Im sure you can find them.

            I already did address the high cost of cloud migration, your reading comprehension or memory just sucks. Cloud migration does cost more, but only upfront. Any business that has a CIO or CTO that has any brains knows thats hardware and software work on 5 or 10 year life cycle. When you open your doors you invest in hardware and software, at 5 years you HAVE to update your software and some of your hardware. If you do not, you stand a large chance of a mission critical component (software or hardware) failing, and at 5+ years the chances of compatibility issues with aging hardware and software come into play. At 10 years you need to start replacing your core components for the same reason.
            Most companies dont do this usually because some bean counter says we cant spend on this, but you can get this, and in the end a half has job is dont to bandage the issue. This is what starts the break/fix cycle for most companies. They start to accept the idea that routine IT costs, reapplying a new bandage, are a fact of life.

            Cloud on the other hand is asking a company to make that first investment all over again, mostly anyway, probobly a little less when all is said and done.
            The thing is, those routine IT costs drop in frequency, the 5 year/10 year cycle goes out the door. Most of the companies we set this up for recouped their investment within that 5 year mark.
            So cloud is not as expensive as you want to make it out to be.

            Networking – AGAIN lets talk about networking. Any small company (lets call it 20 users) with a standard business grade cable internet service can easily host their workforce in cloud based applications. A mid-size business (lets call it 100+ users) needs a larger pipe, but this is nothing new, and larger companies have had larger bandwidth needs for a long time now. Still they can get away with a couple bonded T1 lines, which most of them already have had for the past decade. Very large companies like mine are never going to house all their employees in one building, so the connections needed very from site to site. Our offices in CA, TX, GA and NY all host around 200-600 uses depending on the location. These sites DO require fiber, but the workforce would demand fiber whether we were running through the cloud or not.

            The point here is that the costs of network infrastructure are not on the business end user. They are on the cloud providers. Yes setting up a data center is incredibly expensive, and yes its incredibly lucrative. The rest of the networking to and from is trunk access, which already has a huge amount of bandwidth. The only time anyone starts talking about network architecture being incapable is when some cable co exec starts paying a lobbyist and even then they are talking about their local loop and nothing more.

            BTW Im calling you a kid, because Im old enough to call anyone in the early to mid 20s a kid. Im betting thats your age, because thats how you argue. You flap you jaws until something stops them, then you flaw your jaws with the topic slightly changed to suit your needs, rinse repeat.
            That and you are doing nothing but quick skimming articles on this topic you actually know nothing about and trying/failing to make sense of it, or make it fit your argument.

          17. So you’re basically saying you have no imagination, no backup plan, are loyal to suicidal fault to your company and will gladly go down with the ship like a lemming off a cliff, and in 20 years you haven’t learned the simple fact that progress is rarely straight forward and there’s always risks…

            While still putting out pointless insults like someone still in high school… Seems you can’t help but to totally discredit yourself repeatedly.

            Simple fact of the matter is you’ve been basing most of your argument on hype and unfortunately for you but hype is not reality!

            Yeah, your company may be doing pretty well now but bigger companies than yours have failed before and a lot of the time is because they simply can’t see where they went wrong in time… In fact it was one of the points I made that there have already been lots of companies that have tried the cloud and failed…

            Running a business is always a risk, even big name companies can fail and only a fool would try to argue that can never happen…

            And no on pretty much all your new attempts at trying to save your already lost argument…

            Really, you just keep making erroneous assumptions and keep rolling with them no matter how many times it’s shown to be wrong… Like calling me a kid when I’m also old enough to call someone in their 20’s a kid… You just are so desperate to try to save face but are so incapable of coming up with a valid argument that you’re resorting to troll tactics of calling people names, insulting them, trying to suggest they don’t know what they’re talking about, that they lack experience to have a valid argument, etc.

            Problem is you’re not fooling anyone but yourself with these tactics. The quick skimming for example is what you’re apparently doing because even your own links knock down your own arguments because you apparently only wanted to read the parts that help your argument.

            Really, the fact is the real facts are readily available to anyone willing to simply search for the information and inform themselves… So you never really had a chance because you were never arguing for the reality but the hype that you wanted to present as the reality…

            Like it or not, even sources you claim to accept state the Cloud is still in its infancy and plenty of others show a lot still has to change before it gets to the point that it can really provide advance solutions in any way approaching the reliability, low costs, and consistency of traditional solutions… Even the start of when the Cloud will start to go Mainstream is only one foot in the proverbial door as it will still require hybrid solutions that offsets the remaining limitations with traditional solutions…

            All this and more is now shown to be undeniable… You wanted links, they were never more than a search away and I gave you just a small fraction of what you can find to support my points… You wanted something more recent and didn’t want to see how the trends applied, never mind an actual chart, so I provided that too and yet you still are in denial… making excuses after excuses…

            No, the only one failing here is you…

          18. Oh hey again kid…

            Still not willing to admit to what you do for a living, your training or your background I see. Telling!

            The company I work for is not a tech company. I just happen to work in their IT department. So like I said, we have made the switch over to a mixed cloud environment and it has worked very well for us. Making this switch, stands absolutely ZERO chance of bankrupting the company because it has zero correlation to the product we do sell.

            Im not desperate to save face here kid. I could care less, this is the internet.
            Anyone reading this is going to get a kick out of two nerds going at each other, not who’s right or wrong. But if you really think this is an important argument, then well, I feel bad for you.

            All I can tell you is that you are arguing from a position of less experience. I know you have less experience, because if you had any, you would not be arguing THIS topic in the manner that you are. Basically you smack of arm chair IT.
            I can tell you that we run a mixed cloud environment that has replaced somewhere around 80% of our traditional applications.
            I can also tell you that I have experience with another company that helped small and medium sized businesses transition to hosted cloud services, and that its worked out very well for both the company and its customers.

            Besides poorly interpreted google research, please tell me what real world experience you have that should make me think your opposing argument is relevant. Please use this real work experience and knowledge to tell me how the work Ive done for the past 6 or so years cant possibly be real, because the cloud, isnt a real thing that real people can use yet?

          19. Still going with the Troll tactics I see, sorry but I don’t have thin skin so your just wasting your time trying to get under my skin.

            Really, you’re just in total denial when the facts are what I’ve stated is supported by industry leaders and market researchers! So it doesn’t matter if you want to believe I don’t have enough experience, I can be 50 years older than you and you would probably still try to argue such nonsense, when the fact is you’re going against not just me but people who’s opinions definitely matter!

            From the beginning you tried to argue for the hype instead of the reality… You’re six years have nothing to do with providing advance features to end users because that’s not something that can be provided yet…

            Even big name companies have limits in what they can offer…. Apple, for example, is way bigger than your company but they can’t offer Siri to everyone yet… But that level of Cloud isn’t even remotely close to what is needed to support truly advance features and capabilities that would require even more powerful servers and far better infrastructure support.

            There’s tons of examples of other technologies that have been around for decades before they truly realized their potential as well, it’s just how it often works out… When I was actually a kid, we had to do our own programming to use a computer and the GUI wasn’t out yet.

            You might as well argue that you’ve been working back in the 80’s on the first touch screen devices and act like the technology was already ready for everyone to use when it would be over 30 years before touch screens would start to become a common and widely accepted input method that’s both cheap and reliable enough for the masses.

            So double and triple down if you want, you’re just showing yourself to be someone who won’t accept anything that contradicts their established beliefs and will lash out at anyone who tries… but like I’ve repeatedly now stated, you’re not fooling anyone but yourself…

          20. Oh hey again kid…

            Still not willing to admit to what you do for a living, your training or your background I see. Telling!

          21. Nope, just shows you’re grasping at straws… It’s like trying to argue that your opinion doesn’t matter because you’re just IT… You’ve never run your own business, don’t have any knowledge of infrastructure, and never really had to get different fields of expertise and resources to work together…

            You could be 20 years old or 100 years old and still have no idea what you’re talking about…

            Wisdom isn’t just about experience but the ability to think beyond yourself and understand how the world really works for everyone… and knowledge isn’t limited to just personal experience either…

            Problem is you want to micro-analyze to try to make up some excuse to support your bias but there’s no point because as I already stated you’re going against ALL of the experts!

            Industry leaders, market analyzers, market trends… basic physics and math, not to mention just learning from history frankly… and you want to pretend none of it matters if you can just put me into some short of limited perspective so you can try to ignore everything else but the fact is I never made it about myself… I stated from the beginning that everything I’ve stated is verifiable and it is… Like it or not, all this other stuff is just you trying to distract from that fact… The fact you’re still trying to call me a kid for example, classic distracting tactic…

            Oh well, you tried… but now you’re just wasting our time. The points have been made and nothing you try now will change that…

          22. Oh hey again kid…

            Sorry I didnt see this.
            Looks like you are making excuses for having no real tangible experience in a field that I do have experience in. You can keep on talking and trying to make excuses for your shortcomings, but they do very much appear to be shortcomings.

            I have actually run my own business. Im also not just an IT tech, Im actually a domain admin and have been a domain admin for some years now. Ive done full setups of domains from VMWare, to rack servers, to ground up Windows Server setups, to short site to site fiber runs, point to point long range wifi bridges (fuck those things), SAS storage arrays, Remote System Imaging…

            I can keep going, but the real point of all of this is that my company right now has moved about 80% of its previously local software into the cloud and interfaced through a browser by the user base. All this with less issues and increased productivity.

            Id say thats pretty good, especially for something that cant exist.

          23. Sorry but you confusing a small niche with both the market and the abilities of the cloud at this point… Like nothing your company has moved to the cloud provides any really advance features…

            You’re simply using a hybrid solution that’s only filling the very small and limited needs of your company…

            Really, you don’t think other companies weren’t doing the same with other technologies that still took decades to go mainstream?

            Your response only goes to show you’re the one making excuses… You may have had some minor business experience but you were clearly never a industry leader and the actual leaders don’t agree with you!

            Again, nothing you said will change the fact that you’re ignoring the experts and just want to attack the messenger…

            You’re company’s progress doesn’t even apply to most others because of the still fragmented nature of the progress and when a universal standard is eventually established then your company may have to redo everything…

            The depths of how much you’re not understanding where we are right now is astounding… If you had any real experience then you would know that progress isn’t always fast or in a linear progression…

            Just look at how many companies used to be in the computer business but dropped out because of factors like the market and technology changing…

            Hell, even Remington was once in the computer making business…

            Like it or not the development of the cloud will follow a similar rocky road… There will be periods of progress and periods of failure as it both develops and evolves…

            Not every company will be successful or always successful and make it to the eventual success of the cloud…

            Really, the cloud is like at the stage of PDAs but we need tablets before we see the real potential shown…

            I’m sure Compaq thought they were doing so well with their PDA, it was one of the most useful at the time, but that didn’t change their eventual fate or ignores that we can do a lot more now…

            You’re just falling into the same trap of thinking you already have the solution for the future… But really only have a primitive version of what we will eventually have…

          24. Oh hey again kid…

            Multinational company with 80% of software now cloud based. That includes the entire distribution platform for our product worldwide. That includes the management, software deployment and remote imaging for every PC, Mac, Chomebook, iPhone, iPad, Android device in our inventory. Id say both of those are fairly complex needs. Again, you just have no clue what you are talking about, because you are speaking from an uneducated viewpoint.

            Maybe you should take your own advice and listen to the person working in the industry and maybe change your own, uneducated opinion on this matter.

            The fact that you keep comparing infrastructure with consumer products, is a little bit telling of your background and knowledge.

            Its hard to take you seriously when you keep ignoring the fact that I already use this stuff on a day to day basis, and you do not. Ahhh who am I kidding, I never took you seriously to begin with. I spotted you as a blow hard from your first comment.

            See you next time sucker!

          25. That includes the management, software deployment and remote imaging for
            every PC, Mac, Chomebook, iPhone, iPad, Android device in our
            inventory.

            Yup, the basic and easy stuff… Still not addressing how all that can fail on you overnight, how changing standards can force your business to completely change everything and throw years of investment out the proverbial window, or that better technology can allow your competitor steal all your clients when you can’t switch over to the newer technology fast enough… or what in the world your company would ever do if it had to handle anything really advance…

            Nor does anything you address the fact you provide no examples of the Cloud providing a complete solution that addresses both advance needs and does so both affordably and reliably…

            Really, it’s hard to take you seriously when you fail to address the actual point being discussed where the Cloud can’t provide what is being discussed… Instead you point to unrelated minor progress in some niche market that’s proprietary and not applicable to what can be applied to everyone.

            Here’s a clue, progress is not the same thing as seeing potential fulfilled…

            It’s like a 1 percenter pointing out that they have access to something custom made for them based on the newest technologies when that absolutely represents nothing to the common person… A student going to school isn’t going to have access to have the really advance courses covered by the Cloud because it’s neither affordable enough yet and the infrastructure needed to support it isn’t ready yet…

            Right now, if any cloud service had to service as many people as traditional computers do then it would be like a denial of service attack because pretty much no one has the infrastructure to handle that kind of load… I even pointed out earlier that most only get away with working with the cloud because only about 10% of their users are online at any one time and that’s only customers to that particular company and not the millions and even billions that would require it for the world and would be what any company that provided the cloud as a service would have to handle…

            Even Google, one of the most heavily invested in the Cloud, doesn’t provide services like Siri to every single country and that’s not even a very advance service…

            Many advance applications don’t actually work over the cloud yet because the infrastructure isn’t there yet… acting more as a go between, sending files, etc. back and forth and using compression and other methods to keep the data stream small enough to not overload the available bandwidths is the reality right now…

            This is why even 2-5 years from now they will still only be offering hybrid solutions…

            So no, all you’re doing is trolling but like stated before you’re fooling no one but yourself…

          26. LOL!!! Hey again KID!

            Even Google, one of the most heavily invested in the Cloud, doesn’t provide services like Siri to every single country and that’s not even a very advance service…

            Nice stawman, as it has nothing to do with capability of the cloud it runs under and everything to do with data sets. IE not enough of the language model for it to work correctly. Keep those ass cheeks a flappin though, by all means.

            You seem to think that was have built some sort of custom cloud environment to house our data, and what not. You think this because ONCE AGAIN, YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

            All of our software is industry standard. Its just that industry has changed and now supports cloud infrastructure, all without you knowing it. I bet the reason you don’t know about it, is because you are NOT PART OF THE FUCKING INDUSTRY, YOU DIPSHIT!.

            The backbone of our cloud infrastructure is Amazons AWS and EC2 platforms. Literally one of the largest, most used, and widest adopted backends of any of the cloud platforms out there. There is NOTHING that is going to happen short of a meteor strike at all of the Amazon data centers at once, that will cause this to failout. Im saying this, because the redundancy behind this system is ludicrous. And if you even try to come at me with that “no system is perfect” BULLSHIT, then I will throw a nice big hunk of that shit right back at you. Why, because you are right, which means that no system we build could be perfect, and there is always a chance of failure. The fact though is that Amazon can mop the floor with us in terms of reliability and redundancy.
            Again your lack of knowledge is very telling.

            Can it change within the next 10 years? Well yea of course it can, but a 10 year commitment is all any company should EVER make to hardware and software. If you get told differently, you were just sold a bag of shit.
            I challenge you to find anyone that is willing to say that Amazon is going to fold their platform in the next 10 years.

            These services are scalable btw, thats what makes AWS and EC2 so great. That means that even smaller businesses can get into this and actually SAVE money on hardware, software and IT. This is not news, and its been reported time and time again, which is why cloud computing is rockstar on wallstreet at present.

            BTW what are these “advanced applications” you keep mumbling about. Seriously what are they? We started this because you said that businesses cant run on the cloud reliably. I argued they could. You said only a niche segment could. I showed thats not true. Then you started in with this magical “advanced application” line. Firstly these applications you are mumbling about sure do sound like the niche segment here, and not the every day office applications that businesses need to do work.

            Tell me what are this magical apps that are fundamental to businesses?

          27. Nice stawman, as it has nothing to do with capability of the cloud it
            runs under and everything to do with data sets. IE not enough of the
            language model for it to work correctly. Keep those ass cheeks a flappin
            though, by all means.

            No strawman and you’re just embarrassing yourself with all the trolling…

            Really, if you understood a fraction of what you claim you would know it has a lot more to do than just language models… They didn’t even provide full coverage within the US when they first released it because they had to limit the load on their servers… thus they limited it to specific devices and did not offer it to all their iOS devices until much later.

            In all that time the service did not always work even with a limited rollout and not just because of early bugs but because the infrastructure and the servers were struggling…

            Guess what, both Apple and Google have since moved to a more hybrid solution putting some of the processing for their voice services onto the devices themselves, purposefully offloading it from the Cloud…

            Apple’s Game Center went down just because of one popular App…

            While Google invests over 2.5 billion US dollars a year on new data centres, because they know they need to create the infrastructure, and that’s just to cover the Google search engine and mobile services… but that doesn’t prevent them from having outages, and dealing with demand overload…

            The reason why Youtube works so well is because they have the infrastructure… with massive server centers on multiple continents… You’re company wouldn’t even be a drop in the bucket in comparison.

            This is like complaining why we need roads, when we already know how to build a car… You’re not going to realize the potential until the infrastructure is built first and that’s still a work in progress…

            Much of what’s happening now will eventually turn out to be wasted effort because there are no universal standards established yet and whatever doesn’t fit the eventual universal standards will be dropped… Your idea of industry standard is like saying everyone is using analog, so you assume you have nothing to worry about just before everyone goes digital…

            Or before the mobile device industry settled on microUSB as a universal standard there were plenty of different industry standards… many of which had to be dropped when the universal standard was finally established, just to give another of many such examples to show you have no clue what you’re talking about…

            Costs also all have to go down but that won’t happen until after the infrastructure is there first, you might as well try to offer cloud servers before your company even has servers to run them on… much of the billions being invested in the cloud is just to establish the infrastructure… The actual range of services and applications that infrastructure can eventually be applied to is still in its infancy because the infrastructure is still in its infancy…

            These and many other limitations is why most of the cloud development is still focused heavily on the mobile… Your own article link pointed out this is over 90%… Google tried to get developers started with the original Pixel laptop to develop more advance software for the cloud but that failed because everyone but you apparently know that’s still a long way off from being realized…

            So no, get angry, curse like a troll, cry like a baby, whatever floats your boat but you’re not fooling anyone but yourself if you think you ever had a valid argument here…

          28. Oh HEY KID!!! You replied again. Im shocked!

            Google moved portions of its voice off the cloud because they didnt NEED to be there. Things like local dictation, and verbal commands were easy enough to handle on device, so they did. This decreases un-needed traffic and allows for access in no-network/heavy traffic network situations. Its not because they were over burdened. This is you taking a random guess as to why they made this move. If you have proof otherwise then show it. If not you are just connecting dots to try and salvage your argument.

            There is a whole lot of jibber jabber here, but you still failed to tell me what these “Advance programs” are. WHAT ARE THESE MAGICAL PROGRAMS?!?!?!?!? I feel like Im talking to Trump right now. Lots and lots of talk, but no real points ever being made.

            No one can prevent outages and guarentee 100% uptime. The facts are still the facts that services like Rackspace, AWS, even Google Apps, has a much higher uptime average annually that ANY locally run hardware software combo can match. In fact uptime is one of the largest benifits of cloud based services.

            Many in the industry will advise any company to strongly consider the cloud based on downtime severity for a company. IE the higher the loss of income tied to downtime, the greater the suggestion for moving to the cloud.
            https://www.networkworld.com/article/2866950/cloud-computing/which-cloud-providers-had-the-best-uptime-last-year.html

            You keep stating that the infrastructure isnt there, and that to prove that one only needs to look at the fact that they keep building infrastructure right now to support the cloud. This is just plain stupid.
            There is infrastructure in place right now for anyone that wants to move their business to the cloud. The reason they keep building more, is because they know more and more companies/people will join over time. You don’t wait till someone buys a car to build it.

            Now without all the gum-flappin, no-real-point having fluff, you like to fill your arguments with, how about answering that simple question I asked before.
            WHAT ARE THIS “ADVANCED PROGRAMS”?

          29. Sorry but your lack of knowledge and imagination shows… You’re not going to use the cloud for anything that isn’t common right now for the next decade or so…

            Is it yet practical for every student to have access and learn to use Adobe Creative Cloud? Nope, on just a cost basis the student/teacher discount puts the whole package at around $20 a month for each and every single student about $240 a year or $7200 for every 30 student classroom… If you know anything about school budgets you’d know that’s never going to happen, even in a college… many of which are already overcharging students and putting a whole generation into debt…

            While Adobe simply doesn’t have the servers/infrastructure to support anywhere near as many students that are going to school, yet alone combine all that with the businesses that already use them…

            Are there any advance applications for Chromebooks? Nope, like I already pointed out the Pixel laptop failed to get developer support and again the infrastructure needed to make that practical for everyone to get access is simply not there yet…

            For example, figuring an upstream speed of say 10 Mbps (if you’re lucky), it would take
            about 12.5 days to push up a full terabyte of data… and a mere 10 GB
            would take just under two hours at those speeds. That’s not exactly
            optimal in any practical sense… and let’s not pretend most people can afford to get much better when most regular people have much less bandwidth to work with… Meaning any and all applications that requires pushing more than a few MBs at a time is simply not practical for most people trying to use the Cloud that aren’t backed by big money and conveniently located near the provider of the service…

            Can what can be offered on Cloud go beyond what was already possible with remote desktop services like Citrix offered? In most cases this is still a resounding NO! So that rules out every single advance program/app that you’d only find available on a desktop OS and relying on the PC performance rather than the Cloud.

            Never mind how many people are having to deal with Data Caps!

            Another expert, the U.S. Department of Energy, performed a study over two years that basically determined that cloud computing can’t beat its HPC systems on cost or performance and what’s available to commercial users in many cases would be up to several times more expensive than traditional solutions.

            You should read the report, it highlights such nuggets like the cost to move their entire NERSC computing center to Amazon’s cloud showed that getting comparable computing resources from Amazon would cost about $200
            million annually, or four times NERSC’s annual operating budget… While finding that Connectivity is critical to the success of cloud projects, especially for mission-critical workloads…

            Many who are adopting the cloud now, do so with the understanding and acceptance of both cost and performance trade-offs…

            The very fact that even basic applications still use and often require hybrid solutions rules out the vast majority of advance applications… You’re problem is you can’t seem to comprehend how far off you really are in the claims you’re making.

            Sure, you can argue what can be done with the Cloud and even have some things made easier but that’s a world away from what we’re discussing…

            The present cloud is not going to let everyday people have access to a super computer whenever they want… The present Cloud isn’t even going to replace most traditional solutions for regular people who can’t afford the high premiums, the need to be close to the source provider, etc. that only business, and especially big companies, can seriously consider let alone employ…

            None of this is going to radically change over the next decade… It’ll take over a decade just to see most people get any significant increase in infrastructure bandwidth and affordability…

            With all the progress your company has managed, it’s still nothing compared to what has been done with Youtube, yet even all of that is only providing a niche service and isn’t being applied to other kinds of services that will in turn need their own massive world wide network of massive server complexes.

            Really, you’re only kidding yourself… I’m just hammering it home so no one else buys your nonsense…

          30. BTW you have STILL not produced a single thing to backup your “facts”. You suck at debate.
            It seems that you think debate is just you opinion vs mine, ignoring the idea that you have to support your argument with actual facts. I tried over and over to get you to do so, but you failed to produce even one article, study or verifiable source.

            FYI, just because you state it does not make something a fact. You provided absolutely ZERO references to prove your claims. Just a bunch of you talking in circles and spouting bullshit over and over. Enjoy your delusional existence where you know everything. Im sure you will have fun there on your own.

            Ive enjoyed a few rounds at the bar now, so I can openly say without reservation or hesitation…
            Go eat a bag of dicks you ignorant twat!

          31. Really? Because like I suggest before I have the entire Internet to back up my facts… Everything I stated can be verified if you just bothered to look it up… It’s amazing someone argues about the benefits of the cloud but refuses to use the actual benefits and still expects everything to be done for them even though doing so discredits their own arguments that the cloud can provide so much now…

            So no, you suck at debates as I even used your own so called evidence to prove you didn’t know what you were talking about to boot. You are just in self destruct mode because you can’t get over the fact I didn’t just roll over and accept your fantasy as reality.

            Again, there’s multiple studies over the last few years showing the effects of things like laptops in classrooms having a negative effect… Just having a laptop was shown to reduce students scores by up to 11% and for those without but in the same classroom as students with laptops the effect was even higher at up to 17%… both figures from a 2013 study release, btw… just to show one of many such examples…

            There’s the fact Chromebooks haven’t exceed 6-7% of the PC market for years now, just look up the market shares they release every quarter and every year, they had a small period of rapid rise a few years ago but that was mainly because they were filling the gap left when the original netbook market went bust and that growth has since slowed and has hardly changed now… especially as 2 in 1’s have started to get really cheap too…

            And again with the toll like name calling… You really can’t help but to keep on proving you’re nothing but a troll who just wants to get in the last word but you can’t even pretend you had a leg to stand on to begin with now with all the name calling doing nothing but to discredit you and show that you can’t argue to save your life…

            So yeah, keep it up…

          32. Again, you dont know what you are talking about.
            WE ALREADY USE THE F#@$ING CLOUD EVERY GOD [email protected]^N DAY YOU F#@$ING IGNORANT ASS-HAT!

            You dont actually understand the way cloud computing works, so you dont see that you are wrong, and that the points you are making are pointless.

            Networking – We dont need fiber to the home to take advantage of cloud computing. Node clusters where the server farms are held need to be interconnected with fiber, and they are. The last mile run to the user on the other hand does NOT need a fiber connection.
            Please explain to me why a user needs a fiber connection to use the cloud.
            Please explain to me why a user needs a fiber connection to have an experience that is better/the same, as local computing.
            This ought to be fun.

            You took global spending being up and tried to spin it into high bandwidth networking for some reason. Again mainly because you dont know what you are talking about or how cloud infrastructure works.

            You dont need a CLOUD OS to use cloud computing. This is why a 2 year old OS only has 7% market share. Nice strawman you got there idiot.

            Cloud computing companies are not failing, so much as business is consolidating. You know its the same thing that happens with every damn sector of technology. 3dfx failed miserably in the end, does not mean they didnt usher in 3d acceleration for the PC market while they were at it.

            Device performance is on the decline. Im not talking about what Intel pushes out every term to keeps its portfolio solid. Im talking about the performance we see on the machines that sell the most. Lower end laptops, tablets and smart phones are CRUSHING the highend market in terms of sales, year over year.

            Growth in personal drive storage is linked to the price per mb formula. This is linked now to the price per mb of cloud storage. If you need proof of this, you can look at the sales numbers from a few years ago when flooding distroyed most of Seagates inventory, causing global price per mb to take a huge jump up in price. The fact that drives are so cheap now, and the fact that storage companies are pitching the NAS as an everyday consumer product is directly related to the fact that they are now competing with cloud storage.

            Its all there, you are just too ignorant to see it, because you dont want to see it.

          33. Using the cloud for basic stuff is in no way the same as what you’ve been arguing that it’s advancing to the point of being a viable alternative to traditional computing and that is is somehow completely removed from traditional computing…

            Like HTML5 was being used years before they finalized the specification and it’s still hasn’t fully replaced Flash and people hate Flash!

            Key things that the Cloud needs to get to is enough bandwidth to provide services to just about everyone and do so cheaply and with enough overhead that the majority of people can use the service without it slowing down, crashing, etc.

            Just people using a service can effect a Cloud service like a Internet denial of service attack… Most only get away with it because not everyone is using their cloud services and of those that do only about 10% are on at the same time…

            Cloud services like iOS’s SIRI was slowly rolled out and isn’t available on every country/region because it runs off Apple’s own servers and they can only handle so much user bandwidth at one time, not to mention delays when users from other nations are trying to access the same servers on a different continent…

            Really, things like simple physics and math seem to go completely over your head with these silly arguments you’re trying to lay out… Simple fact of the matter is the infrastructure isn’t there yet and won’t be for over a decade!

            It’s like arguing how private jets have advanced over the years but fail to acknowledge that very few people can ever afford to use them… Cost, bandwidth, the entire infrastructure, etc all has to support it first…

            Second, much of what advancement there has been has come from things like using better bandwidth compression methods to require less actual bandwidth to provide a service… Like it used to be much harder to stream videos but you’re still not going to see 4k, let alone the growing 8K standard, everywhere any time soon…

            Users still have to worry that a cloud service being provided by a company may disappear… along with dealing with some types of services that may not be offered by any other company…

            There’s tons of reasons why your arguments simply don’t work because you never look at the big picture…

      2. Did I jump back to 2010 where people are still claiming how everyone’s going to be doing everything on an ipad? Painful.

        Ipad sales are plumetting, and Apple are now trying to copy MS’s Surface RT from 3 years ago.

        Not being dependent on one OS is fine – but going from needing any make of Windows PC, to needing a tablet that’s only available from one company, is a step backwards there. It’s also a confusing argument when it’s ipads that need an “app” instead of using the web page.

    3. First off their is a rather large number of companies that have ChromeOS in use at one level or another. Secondly you seem to be of a mindset that would be average to someone that was born in or around the late 60’s, early 70’s. When people of these generations were coming up in the workforce, an OS mattered very much, because it determined what software they could run.
      This is only the case for maybe 2% of the software that matters out their now.

      The rest of the OS boils down into Graphical User Interface (GUI) design, which is really what you are talking about.

      If an OS follows the KISS principle with its GUI, then they are doing it right. If they are doing it right then, their GUI and thus the OS really does not matter too much.
      Can you find where to launch Office, OK GOOD, now start working on those TPS reports.
      Chome OS can run Office, and for workplace, Office is the only thing that really matters.
      When they ask you if you can work a PC, they mean can you work in Office.

      I work in IT, and I can tell you that most offices are now Mixed OS. Yes windows still dominates, but we run the same software on all of the platforms.

      Here is a small list of large business using ChromeOS in the US. Hell I work for Redbull, and we are not even listed there, so its not a complete list by any means.
      https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/business/devices/casestudies.html#casestudy-usarmy

      1. to put it simple – chromebooks are the cheap cloudy typewriters of today for where one may need typewriters. but even in the age of real typewriters some about 90 years ago, specialists in industry and science – to name some some – needed special devices for their special, professional needs. that has not changed with chromebooks and the like until today. this world is still closed to them. the real problem with ALL current os’es is the state and governmental administrations let private, monopolized, semitransparent companies track, control and invade users privacy unquestioned and uncontrolled. this way violating their obligations and responsibilities they constitutionally have for their citizens.
        that is the dangerous, orwellian part of the actual agenda in it industry.

  5. It’s in Google’s own interests to do everything they need to do to ensure this issue of privacy is resolved to the EFF’s satisfaction. The amount of money they can earn from targeted ads to students out of school hours when they’re logged in on their own personal devices is nothing compared to the amount of revenue they will earn during the lifetime of students who adopt Google’s services as their standard because it’s what they used when they were in school. This is marketing 101.

  6. seems that there is a problem with every platform for the classroom…ipads didn’t work…windows netbooks didn’t work…windows laptops didn’t work…chromebooks…blah blah blah…

    my youngest was the only one to have a “device” (windows 7 netbook) issued to her in high school…of course dell was generous enough to donate the crappiest low spec boat anchor in their inventory.

    and don’t get me started about support…which i believe is the weakest link in the chain. the student volunteers were the ones that actually made the devices and the campus network usable.

    1. This is where ChomeOS really shines though.
      Oh its not working right? Well lets just reset it to factory default. OK login. Ok, you are all set. (15 minutes tops)

      Whats that? Its still not working? No problem, these things are cheap as dirt. Here’s a new one. Ok login. There you go, all you stuff right where you left it.

      For a school environment, I really cant think of a better product.

      1. Well the reset to factory default solution will work for Windows laptops too (usually it’s a pain if you have to then reinstall a load of Win32 apps, but that’s not an issue if you’re just using the web browser). Being cheap is nice though.

        1. Thats very true… The reset options in the Win8/10 versions of the OS are very mature now. You can even create a custom image that contains all the company/school software, avoiding the first downside you mentioned.

          The real issue though is data. While a refresh will retain the data in the user folder, it will not retain the data housed in APPS. Additionally a refresh might not actually fix the issue, especially if its a malware infection.
          A reset on the other hand wipes data from users and apps.

          The other issue is backend management. Most of these computers in the classroom are not given to a single student, they are classroom computers so they need to have multiple users log into this. This is much easier on chromeos than it is with Windows in a domain environment.

  7. It isn’t the Chromebooks per se that are the problem, it is the services offered by Google and kids will be using these no matter the device, including Linux or the phones referenced by readers. There are powerful Chromebooks and less powerful Chromebooks, but recommending a phone as an alternative doesn’t make a lot of sense (why not just buy a more powerful Chromebook) especially if lessons are designed to take advantage of the Chromebook. Whether or not these are utilized as powerful educational tools or a commercial intrusion into the private lives of students depends upon the teachers that use them and the involvement of informed parents. As an educational technology specialist, I have seen them used safely and with extremely positive educational outcomes. Every alternative comes with it’s own set of issues. Given the choice of school provided Chromebooks or parent provided tools of some other flavor or iPads with an appropriate increase in the property taxes to fund them, many, perhaps most parents, would choose the status quo. Every one-to-one initiative that I have ever seen allows parents/students to opt out–I have not come across a single case of mandated use, and I would be highly skeptical of anyone who claims to have been subjected to such.

  8. As someone who recently left the k-12 education system, and I have a bunch of siblings currently in the public education system, I can assure you the students themselves hate these machines.

    I used a chromebook by choice for a few years, and it simply isn’t capable for the majority of high school tasks. Middle school, sure. But not statistics classes or actual reports.

    1. This year, my daughter’s middle school English teacher recommended buying her a smart phone for in-class Internet access because the Chromebooks were so underpowered.

      1. Sounds like the teacher may not have understood the Chromebook. A computer may offer an advantage, but not a smartphone or even an iPad or tablet. A computer may have native applications that would perform better, and be less problematic, than the online tools used on chromebooks, phones, and tablets. This is only true if the computer isn’t outdated.

        1. Or, perhaps the teacher may be identifying something else as a problem rather than the Chromebooks. Could be the wifi at the school is bad. Bad enough to make even connecting to google services a chore.

          Speaking of which, are there any chromebooks with ethernet?

      2. Kind of silly advise. Kids HATE tablets and smart phones when they have to type up multi-page assignments. And having MDI on a Chomebook means my kids can easily look up information, listen to music, copy and paste information, type up their paper, do their math, and watch a video on how to do their homework.

        Android and iOS are fine for consumption. Production of content? Nope. Not at this time. And Windows is a complete mess to support in a school.

        1. My comment was misinterpreted. The school-provided hardware was too slow for surfing the web, slower than using cell phones. The choice was not about typing up papers, doing math (no math work assigned in English class), etc. And the teacher was not advising on what kind of hardware the student should have at home.

          1. The only possible reasonable argument the teacher could have had would be if the school wi-fi implementation is horrible. Or at least access in his/her classroom is – and so they were counting on parents paying for mobile data.
            Otherwise even the lowest powered Chromebook is more than speedily capable fo surfing the web. And one equivalent in price to a decent smartphone is hella-fast at the job.

          2. It most likely is a problem with the network set up. I job shadowed a middle school’s technology technician for a bit a couple of years ago and they were having to restart access points often. Instead of setting up an access point in each classroom and setting up separate connection sign ins for each access point they used one sign in so students wouldn’t have to mess with that setting. The end result is too many chromebooks on a single access point causing no one to be able to connect.

    2. That’s interesting. what type of stuff are they doing? My kids are using chromebooks with google docs, presentation and it’s plenty fast for doing what they need. They even do collaboration work. Oldest is 7th grade. You can even use a normal computer with just a chrome/chromium browser and continue on your work. I’m smelling some astroturfing BS here.

      1. It’s fine for middle school and below. Basic tasks. You really need full office in high school and above.

        1. I have two high schoolers. I bought both Chromebooks to use instead of the 1-1 junk from the HS. Everything is submitted via Google Docs and Google classroom is far superior to anything Windows based.

          In what HS assignments would you think MS Office would be needed for?

          1. Things like Business classes that needs to show students how working in a work environment is really like and covering needs like making sure a document/presentation will always look the same to both the business users and end clients, etc.

            Though, as long as you don’t mind paying a subscription fee you can always use the online version of MS Office… but it may not give you all the features and options the desktop installed version supports.

            But it’s mainly that a full desktop OS lets you go beyond what you can do in a Browser and basically running mostly simple browser apps… Chromebooks are fine for a lot of uses but you still have to do things like install Crouton or a full GNU/Linux distro on them to go beyond what Chrome does…

            There is also the worry that we’re making things too easy for students, so they become too reliant on the technology and stop really thinking for themselves… posing a possible future downside where we don’t produce as competitive a generation that can compete in the growing world market…

            So it’s more a big picture thing than any one aspect of PC usage or even any specific program/app like MS Office…

            Limits like low internal drive space, etc. don’t help either when it comes to flexibility, dealing with network outages, etc… not to mention the lack of 3rd party support, lack of 3rd party options, and general user customization freedom…

          2. all these things you don’t want for a student who’s supposed to be doing assignments, not taking apart their computer and crashing it to the point of requiring system reinstalls.

          3. Yeah, let’s not encourage ingenuity, creativity, problem solving, etc. and that’s not even going into being able to take a computer apart and knowing/learning what to do when there are problems with a computer…

            US students are like 31st in Math, 24th in science, 21st in reading, etc in world ranking… Despite spending the most on each student…

            So nope, school system is definitely not going in the right direction…

          4. You contradicted yourself with the ChromeOS vs Windows on innovation argument. I want kids to be interested in doing new things. So why in the world would I encourage Windows use?

            Wouldn’t an inexpensive Chromebook, put into developers mode, dual booting chrubuntu or chroot running crouton give an entire universe of more software than Windows could match (for $0)? At the same time the ChromeOS side satisfies the needs of the everyday “get your homework done” problem with little need to support ( because ChromeOS is a tank and just works ).

            What can a kid do in developer mode with crouton? Symbolic mathematics, computational mathematics, statistics software (real statistics like R development, not joke stats like spreadsheets), every programming language they could think of, virtualization, and … well just tell them to browse https://freshcode.club/ and find something that interests them. All at $0. The only thing that limits them is imagination.

            As far as learning what businesses use, who cares what exactly a business uses *today*? In the 8+ years before the student gets a real job the technology will change dramatically. How much have UI’s (for OS and apps) changed from 2007 to 2015?

            My idea for school tech: Chromebits in labs and Chromebooks for individuals. Introduce a “ChromeDev” after school (or early school) program and have those students put their Chromebooks in dev mode and install crouton. And over the multi-year program introduce them to administration of workstations, virtualization, scientific software, programming, etc. By their senior year they should be the ones teaching the freshman intro class.

          5. So why in the world would I encourage Windows use?

            Because it’s a desktop OS that can do far more things than Chrome can… both the teachers and students can customize and experiment to their hearts content… Or use any other desktop OS, any of them will offer you more than Chrome and you can still run Chrome on most of them anyway… as far as actual learning goes there’s no good reason to limit everyone to just Chrome…

            All Chromebooks really do is take a GNU/Linux desktop distro and makes it boot directly into Chrome, which is why you can unlock the desktop with Crouton… but for most users it locks them down to a predetermined environment with limited options…

            Really, Chrome doesn’t encourage a completely open learning environment… It’s a locked down platform that is only intended to be used the way it was designed to be used and doesn’t really offer much in preparing students for the real world working environments they’ll eventually have to deal with…

            Wouldn’t an inexpensive Chromebook, put into developers mode, dual
            booting chrubuntu or chroot running crouton give an entire universe of
            more software than Windows could match (for $0)?

            And you just lost the only reason to use a Chromebook… as you’re no longer under Google support when you’re not running the default Chrome and they’re not responsible for your experimentations…

            The reason to use a Chromebook is not only it’s low cost but also the low support it requires from end users… and no, Windows still has more software and is one of the reasons why it still has a over 80% market share as it’s not because everyone loves Windows… Even after Google merges Chrome with Android this will remain true…

            So the only thing we’re going to agree on is that they should at least introduce something like “ChromeDev” programs as a possible gateway to more advance stuff… but otherwise the actual school statistics definitely doesn’t show a benefit for Chromebooks other than lower IT costs and complying with the let’s make things so easy that students don’t even need to learn mentality that schools have gotten over the last two decades… Colleges especially aren’t really challenging students much anymore and that’s where they most definitely should…

            Just to be clear, I’m not saying they shouldn’t use Chromebooks but as the only option it has its limitations and as the students progress from beginner to advance they should be offered more… So, say beyond elementary… they should look at something more capable…

          6. One has nothing to do with the other.

            Having a tool for students to do daily work on, that does not require a break/fix cycle that they need to deal with is what we are discussing.
            This is actually fine because as we move forward, the idea of what the PC is will slowly morph from machine to utility. Meaning most of the products we will interface with with not be a fixable products from a hardware standpoint, they will be replaceable products.

            Teaching students to work on the software and hardware of a computer system is still very important, I will not argue that, but this should be handled in an actual set of courses. Giving a child or teen a PC and stating that the break/fix cycle makes them smarter is just not true. It has no real use for most people in our world at present and will have even less use in the world these kids will live in.

          7. One has nothing to do with the other.

            Wrong, of course it’s relevant… What technology we give students matter as much as the implementation and what it both allows and prevents…

            Giving students little more than Internet access promotes letting them get distracted… There’s already many schools that implement methods to block sites to prevent students from abusing the Internet access but anyone who teaches knows those methods have their limits and kids will be kids…

            There’s also the lack of promoting imagination and options for teachers to create learning situations for the students.

            Sure, neither of us are arguing that there shouldn’t be a time and place for certain things like teaching the advance stuff but it matters if the system doesn’t make that easy and whether even normal usage can even impair the learning environment because they’re just throwing technology at students like government throws money at the education problem.

            You may not agree but the studies on the effects of computers in classrooms already back what I’m telling you… Really, promoting problem solving and creative thinking is what we should be promoting… not shoving aside for just a niche course that most may not even opt for…

            We’re living in a society that is increasingly becoming dependent on technology and the next gen should become even more comfortable with it than we were, failing to do so means we fail to prepare them to face the world they will have when they grow up and take over…

          8. “Giving students little more than Internet access promotes letting them get distracted”

            Again, you dont know what the hell you are talking about.
            Just because an application runs through a browser does not mean that it is no longer an application. If I were playing Quake on my chromebook (which I can), would I still simply be browsing the web.

            Look kid, I grew up with Atari computers in my school. Not Atari game consoles actual Atari PCs. Then they were replaced by Commodores, and eventually Apple II. Does anything I learned on those systems back then hold any value for the average worker today. NOT A GOD DAMN THING. That is unless you took a career in programming. Its hard to predict the working environment 10 years out, its near impossible to predict said environment 20 years out. Dont sit here and try to tell me that teaching a kid using a Chromebook is damaging his longterm technology skillset, you look like and idiot for trying. If you think that you knowing how to change a physical drive out or reinstalling an OS makes you a more attractive employee for anything outside of a basic IT position, then you are fooling yourself.

            Teaching a kid that software and programs are now more than just executable local installs, is not going to harm a child. In fact it prepares them for more of the work force environment then you seem to even know about.

          9. Sorry but I know what I’m talking about, you’re just in denial and don’t want to face all the pitfalls and negatives you’ve conveniently ignored and pretended didn’t exist up till now…

            A cloud app is a much more simplified app than a traditional desktop app… Some are even little more than glorified shortcuts to a given web site…

            And I’m no kid either so you fail at that guess too… You can pretend all you want but post it publicly and people like me who care about facts and reality, along with fighting misinformation are going to call you out when you obviously misrepresent your case.

            Really, again just look up the studies that have already been done… Ignoring the actual public evidence only shows you to be the one not facing reality, never mind trying to insult my intelligence only shows badly on you as well… besides, it’s my point that teaching kids that’s there’s a lot more to a computer than a browser and web apps helps prepare them for the future… You’re really reaching trying to pretend I ever meant only hardware when I was pointing out the limitations of the software to being with…

          10. Where, where is this evidence that you have presented. Because like I said before, the only thing you are presenting so far is your damn opinion with nothing to back it up.

            You keep on ignoring the fact that all of the pitfalls and negatives of traditional computing methods, is the very thing that cloud computing address.
            Hardware does not matter
            Data Retention is paramount
            Data Security is paramount

            Im sorry but all this crap you think its important with regard to hardware, stopped actually being that important several years ago when we started dropping quad core cpus into machines that for the most part act as an interface for a browser.

            Its not up to me to go look up a study you are citing. If you make the claim, then you present the data to back it up. You know like I already have in several of these exchanges.

            besides, it’s my point that teaching kids that’s there’s a lot more to a computer than a browser and web apps helps prepare them for the future

            My point is that you are actually wrong. Again I work in this industry, I see what is used on a daily bases, I support it, I work the backend on it. There is a huge number of applications that have moved OFF of the local machine and into a web browser. This IS where we are headed right now, not off in the future, but right now. The majority of my users would be able to do about 90% of their daily work on a Chromebook. Some of them can get away with 100%. Hell some of them get away with only using their iPads for a full days work.
            All of this is handled through SaaS.
            That 10% is special use cases, like web asset development, ad and layout development, video and post processing. So here is an example of a large multinational company that has moved almost completely to SaaS, with only a niche segment needing traditional applications.

          11. Where, where is this evidence that you have presented.

            For someone who advocates the cloud you’re very adverse to looking things up… I already told you they’ve done studies on the effects of things like laptops in schools. None of this is hard to find!

            You keep on ignoring the fact that all of the pitfalls and negatives of
            traditional computing methods, is the very thing that cloud computing
            address

            Hardware does not matter
            Data Retention is paramount
            Data Security is paramount

            No, sorry but you’re the one ignoring the pitfalls and negatives that Cloud brings in… Solving one thing but bringing in a new problem doesn’t mean it’s a better system.

            While trying to pretend that the Cloud is some magic bullet that solves all old computing issues is also wrong…

            Servers running the Cloud can still fail, businesses running those servers can still shut down, data can still be lose or corrupted, and data security just swaps local security concerns with cloud security concerns that are potentially worse for everyone because a local system can be isolated and provide limited data but the cloud means access to massive numbers of users and can be attacked 24/7 as the cloud is always online.

            So you’re only reducing such instances but not eliminating them…

            You’re also pretending there are no benefits to the traditional system, like easier to provide privacy, easier to lock down behind firewalls, etc. for security, not being totally beholden to the company providing the cloud service and dependent on them to never go out of business or sale your data to another party, it’s still cheaper because you don’t have to pay a company for the services and can actually own everything you use to do with as you wish…
            Really, again, you can spin it any way you want but it’s not going to really change the state of the market to what you want it to be… That’s going to take a lot of hard work, money and lots of time…

          12. Are you still talking… because all I see now is bla bla bla, im a dumb shit that has no clue what Im saying.

            God there is so much here in your little rant that is so wrong and proves your ineptitude on the subject. BUT, im done talking to to bricks.

            Enjoy your bubble.

          13. You mean enjoy showing the world that you’re just a troll now… congratulations on totally discrediting yourself.

            Really, you’re not fooling anyone but yourself but whatever helps you sleep at night… It never ceases to amaze me how some people just self destruct when they face someone they can’t fool or outsmart into thinking their way…

          14. Im not trying to outsmart you. You have done a bang up job of proving your ineptitude all on your own. Its impossible to talk to someone about a subject when the other person has their head buried in the sand, and refuses to actually acknowledge when they are wrong. Even better when they keep claiming facts, while providing ZERO evidence to back it up.

            Please, please show me an article that says that cloud computing is at least a decade away from being available to the masses. You have yet to do so, you simply just keep insisting that YOU are the source and that YOU know everything.

          15. I already provided a link showing a industry leader stating Cloud Computing still has a decade or more of growth left to do and there’s plenty more if you just take off the blinders and see the market for what it’s actually showing…

            It’s like the people who tried to argue HTML5 would kill off Flash when it didn’t even fully offer a complete alternative to Flash for everything it could do and only has managed to replace Flash in certain applications, leaving us stuck with Flash despite pretty much everyone agreeing it has to die…

            Singing the praise and lauding the potential is not the same as looking at where we’re at now and taking a realistic look at just how long it will take to get to where we really want it to be…

            Another example, GNU/Linux has long had a advantage over Windows but since it was first put out it hasn’t gotten much more than about 3% of the desktop PC market and only has excelled in the mobile, server, and embedded markets…

            Succeeding in a niche is not the same as a platform that can really replace the traditional solutions and that’s another of the problems Cloud has to overcome…

            Sure, you can run the Cloud version of Office from a Chromebook but it’ll be either the limited online version that doesn’t even give you the entire Office package and severely limits your options and features or it’ll be a service you have to pay for and not everyone can afford it on a continuous basis…

            Never mind cloud services like what Adobe offers that cost a heck of a lot more to access.

            Again, there’s a whole world of reasons why the realizing of Clouds potential, while there has definitely been progress, still has a very long way before it can be said to be truly fulfilling its potential…

            It’s like Electric cars… They’ve been able to make them for decades but only now are they getting to the point of being practical…

            Google’s attempt to try to get developers to invest in Chrome for higher end usages failed with the original Pixel laptop…. So unless you start accounting for why that happened then you’re not ready to look at the big picture…

        2. You mentioned statistics in your last post – I used to think Google was lacking there and only use excel – in recent years I’ve come to believe Google Sheets is actually easier to use. Here’s a full list of functions available, I’d be shocked if you couldn’t find something for your statistics class.
          https://support.google.com/docs/table/25273?rd=2

        3. You’ve said that but what specifically are you talking about? I have more years of College than I care to recall and I really can’t think of a report I ever had to write which I would have needed MS Office for.
          As far as a statistics class – which I’ve also had a couple of – unless you are specifically doing programming in R or Matlab or something there is nothing you need a computer for at all.

      2. Calling your opponent an astroturfer…is this like the new version of godwin’s law? First to accuse the other of astroturfing wins?

        1. probably should have posted that to whoever complained that chromeos was required, where chrome, which runs on linux, windows, osx, works just fine to do all the tasks chromeos does. I honestly don’t know what other stuff kids need to do aside from papers, presentations, spreadsheets and some web interface stuff. My oldest is in 7th grade.

          1. Well, I guess you’ll find out once your kids gets into high school, I personally wouldn’t know. Having recently used a chromebook for a collaborative inventory project using google docs, I can say it doesn’t feel at all slow compared to any other web-based app. Perhaps the schools are suffering from the “stadium effect”

    3. I’m in college and my chromebook works just fine for doing reports. I don’t see why most students need something more advanced then google docs (or word online) just for writing essays. Even if you need “presentation” software like powerpoint I remember in my last two years of high school students mostly using Prezi which is kind of easier to use and works fine on chromebooks.

      I don’t see why most students would hate chromebooks unless they were disappointed that they couldn’t play stupid games on it.

      1. It all depends if they need to do professional level work or not… Since professional level work often has to do things like corroborate, etc. that requires not only advance features but that ability to easily work together and consistently put out a consistent product…

        Sure, if you’re doing nothing on a professional level then you can get away with a lot less and what Google offers is just fine for those kinds of applications but there’s a whole world of things they don’t cover and not everyone going to college is going to have as little needs to cover as you apparently do…

        1. Im starting to think that you dont actually use any of the Google Doc apps. ALL OF THEM are made to work in collaboration with other users (thats the word you were looking for.Not Corroborate – Confirm or give support to (a statement, theory, or finding)).

          AGAIN, Microsoft Office IS available for ChromeOS.

          1. Sorry but while Google Docs is okay and fine for regular use it still has limitations that keep it from ever replacing professional programs for actual real world work. What you think of corroboration barely covers the basics, for example…

            While MS Office for Chrome is just online Office and that too has limitations… but Office apps are hardly a good example as they’re hardly pushing the limits of a system but there are plenty of pro programs that do and professionals need more than just Office…

          2. STOP USING CORROBORATION!!! It does not mean what you think it means.
            The word you want is COLLABORATION!

            Please give me some examples of Professional Programs, while also trying to keep it inline with your argument of “Only good for niche markets”.
            Because so far the only things you keep pointing at that NEED a full PC, is niche markets and niche needs.

            MS Office Online, in its current form is amazingly robust and the aspects that are missing are the ones that have very little real world usage. Its also not the only means to run Office on ChromeOS.
            There is standard RDP, RDP Apps, and even Azure based Remote Apps. The later is a full blown hosted VM running the actual suite and remote viewed.

          3. Corroboration is part of collaboration, as well as cooperation… Working in a business environment involves them all! So get over yourself…

            Btw, the Onus is on you to try to argue what Chrome can do that’s beyond a niche… We are talking about what is really just a web browser that can run web apps and gives you access to the Internet and cloud services… All of which has limitations.

            Without a underlining OS for it to run on it wouldn’t even be able to boot…

            While Cloud computing does not replace enterprise architecture. It does not
            provide “infinite scalability,” it does not “cost pennies a day,” you
            can’t “get there in an hour”…

            One big example is data security. Case in point, when we moved our e-commerce infrastructure to the cloud, we obviously had to encrypt communication channels with SSL between all nodes of database clusters, etc. This is something we didn’t have to do when we were on a private network or on a private switch protected by firewalls.One example of a problem is data security. Case in point, when moving e-commerce infrastructure to the cloud, things like needing to encrypt communication channels with SSL between all nodes of database clusters, etc. is required, but this is not needed when on a private network or on a private switch protected by firewalls… along with many other examples that shows Cloud has its limitations for businesses.

            Lack of performance is another issue, especially with limited bandwidth and that makes using more powerful apps harder to do… Cloud also doesn’t insure you won’t lose anything as breaking just changes from local to the cloud where server problems, loss of connection, failure to upload/download a file, etc. can all cause issues.

            So let’s stop pretending there aren’t limitations and we’re still a very long way from the potential being realized…

          4. WTF are you talking about here??? Firstly your copy and paste failed you.
            Secondly, if you were hosting an ecommerce site inside a private network, it was never an ecommerce site. Were you only selling your wares to employees?
            Thirdly, do you think physical on-premise infrastructure is pennies a day? HAHAHA, you must be joking. Im wondering what article you copy and pasted this from.

            Now for your argument that the onus is on me about ChromeOS. First off you have been all over the god damn board with regard to what you want to argue about and what your stance is on this subject. Its hard to keep it straight, but thats probably because you realize you are out of your depth and didnt expect someone with infrastructure experience to come on and challenge your bullshit claims.

            Again ChromeOS is part of a growing market that takes advantage of SaaS and IaaS. Is it the only player in town, no by all means it is not. The point though is that as the business and the consumer word trod deeper down the path of using these services, its becomes painfully obvious that the needs to “compute” locally diminishes. This means that locally hosted applications are not needed any longer for just about everything BUT small niche useage cases.

            “Lack of performance is another issue, especially with limited bandwidth and that makes using more powerful apps harder to do… Cloud also doesn’t insure you won’t lose anything as breaking just changes from local to the cloud where server problems, loss of connection, failure to upload/download a file, etc. can all cause issues.”

            About the only thing here is that is actually a true statement is “loss of connection” BUT the methods you would have us believe are superior are almost always dependent on network connectivity as well. Additionally data retention is FAR better on cloud infrastructures than it ever will be on locally hosted, to argue that is just stupid.

          5. Firstly your copy and paste failed you.

            Disqus does that sometimes… already fixed it, btw…

            Secondly, if you were hosting an ecommerce site inside a private network, it was never an ecommerce site.

            Obviously you don’t use Virtual Private Network (VPN)… There’s also private industrial networks, which are web-enabled networks
            that coordinate transactions between specific companies…

            Regardless, the point remains, cloud computing doesn’t let you implement the same types of security precautions… especially, if you’re using a service from another company and requires new types of security precautions because it poses new types of risks…

            Again, we can go back and forth all day… Like it not Cloud computing is still in its infancy and still has a lot of growing to do… It doesn’t mean you can’t use it for anything but it’s foolish to expect too much from it now when a lot still needs to change before it becomes a no-brainer choice…

          6. Obviously you don’t use Virtual Private Network (VPN)… There’s also private industrial networks, which are web-enabled networks that coordinate transactions between specific companies…

            Obviously that would not be an e-commerce site.

            Obviously you still dont understand how this stuff works.
            If you host your own e-commerce sight then the onus in on you to provide security. If you host it with a company, they do. That’s why most people choose a 3-party, to cut costs and increase reliability.

            Again, we can go back and forth all day… Like it not Cloud computing is still in its infancy and still has a lot of growing to do… It doesn’t mean you can’t use it for anything but it’s foolish to expect too much from it now when a lot still needs to change before it becomes a no-brainer choice…

            I never claimed its not a growing market. I claimed that its not going to be the 2 decade length of time you did before it takes over. I claimed by the end of this decade it will have taken over. But hey, its good to see you admitting you were wrong, even if you are still trying to say you were right while doing it.

          7. Obviously that would not be an e-commerce site.

            Sorry but that’s wrong, eCommerce isn’t limited to just public sites… Really, the World Wide Web only accounts for an estimated 4% of the internet… All you need is a computer networks to run a eCommerce site and that can have any setup that is possible with computer networks ranging from open to private…

            So obviously you’re making erroneous assumptions that then make you erroneously assume you know what you’re talking about…

            And no, if all that it had left to do was just grow then we would already be seeing the death of traditional PC software… Problem is it still lacks the infrastructure, cost benefits, universal standards, and top to bottom market acceptance it needs.

        2. I’m sure the majority of high school and middle school students I was replying to that guy about don’t need to do “professional work” either. When I was in high school the majority of students was either using internet explorer or Microsoft word. PowerPoint used to be popular but now most students have switched to using Prezi because it’s easier to use and makes nice graphics.

          There are still computer labs with windows computers in it but before I graduated they started to buy chromebooks to replace a lot of the outdated slow almost unusable laptops the school had. Chromebooks will work fine for most of the high school students to use to do their work.

          1. But that’s part of the problem, again we’re nowhere near the top in education in the world ranking and we have the least reason for that to be the case because we spend the most…

            In some countries their equivalent to middle school is already doing things like what we would consider college level math, etc. It’s kinda hard to expect the next gen to really compete in the world market if we’re not producing the most educated people…

            While education doesn’t stop at middle school anyway, justifying Chromebooks for education includes higher education and colleges.

            Btw, there already have been studies showing that laptop use in class can result in lower grades for students… So just blankly throwing technology at the problem isn’t going to fix it anymore than the billions we already thrown at the school system…

  9. If the alternative is the MS or the Apple EULA, Chromebooks are far better choice. And GNU/Linux is even better, but there is no company selling those cheap laptops as Chromebooks with GNU/Linux to schools in USA.

    1. Uh, considering Google has a long history of privacy concerns… EULA wording that tends to suggest they own everything that happens relating to their apps and services, such as all user data, though they toned downed the wording in recent years but it’s still there… along with losing a list of privacy and security related lawsuits, like EU’s forget me right, etc. that proves they’re still at it…

      I’m sure there’s quite a few people who would disagree with you on which is a better choice when it comes to what the EULA requires and allows for each platform…

      Though, I agree that GNU/Linux would be a better choice but it’s unfortunately too fragmented and marginal a platform… Chromebooks mainly have a advantage of being consistent, easily replaceable, and low maintenance that gives it an advantage even compared to most GNU/Linux distros but it offers limited performance and features… Even though you can always install Crouton or just replace the OS with a GNU/Linux distro but most people never do and that’s a bit much to ask of students…

      The lack of killer apps for productivity and learning, though, is Chrome’s weakness and even after it’s eventual merger with Android that won’t change anytime soon… So Chromebooks aren’t always a ideal solution and unfortunately there’s yet to be a clearly good solution for all as all platforms have their strengths and weaknesses but each can appeal to a particular niche…

      1. Google doesn’t have a long history of privacy concerns. The internet has a long history of fools.

        1. Reality is the reality whether you like it not, the fact is Google has lost multiple court cases and have a long history of complaints which proves they do have a long history of privacy concerns otherwise they would never have lost any of those cases and there would have been no valid complaints but there are…

          Really, it’s their business model because they make their money from the data. So it’s silly to pretend otherwise!

      2. As someone that works in in the information technology sector for a large multinational company, I can tell you that Google is ahead of the curve on this type of environment. Rollout, and maintenance of this product is second to none. I challenge you to find another setup that works as easily as this. About the only thing that comes close are dumb terminals with a remoting into a terminal service. But with that comes the high cost and maintenance of the backend to host them.

        Im actually really surprised to, as the Azure platform from Microsoft was promising this same thing to us quite a while before ChromeOS hit the market. Microsoft did a 90º turn and decided it would be better to pitch that to business only, a mistake in my opinion.

        Im not sure what this “Killer App” thing is. First off that basically the same lingo thats used for game consoles, and does not really apply we discussing classroom computers.
        The lack of Productivity tools is also flat out wrong. The built in Google suite is fairly powerful as they stand, BUT there is nothing besides a license from stopping a school from using MS Office Online. Its basically a one for one replica of the suite displayed in a web view. Educational tools? HA the Chrome store has one of the fastest growing libraries of educational software and suites in any platform.

        Sorry I dont mean to call you out or anything, but to use the descriptor of “niche” for a product that holds 50% of the US school system is just a bit funny to me.

        1. Things like great maintenance just masks the problems… there are plenty of them and that’s not going to change anytime soon!

          Chrome simply doesn’t cover all business needs for all companies, which is just one reason their market share is still hovering only just above 6% of PC market… And while security is good for regular users it isn’t enterprise level… Among other issues…

          Really, lets not go into fan boy arguments as to why someone would think Chrome is the greatest when it’s not…

          It does have its strengths and you can argue it’s a great product based on that but nothing comes without weaknesses and there are multiple reasons why it’s still a niche product… Pretending otherwise is not looking at the big picture and denying the limitations of the product…

          1. LOL, first off, lets not bring the work fanboy into the discussion. You instantly turn the discussion into an argument when you do that, and it makes you look emotionally invested.

            Second, we are discussing the use of ChromeOS in Schools. Switching the argument over to Business needs is, well its changing the discussion to suit your point. Thats freshman level debate tactics there buddy.
            With that said, if you want to talk about business, I can tell you that you are still wrong.

            The only thing keeping windows in place and dominant for market share is cost of in place enfrastructure, which generally has a 10+ year life cycle, with a 5 year hardware refresh cycle. Meaning when a large business rebuilds their backend, they do so with a 10 year plus plan in mind, while acknowledging that some major components need to be updated at the 5 year mark.

            Now whats interesting, is that right NOW, there is a large shift away from stand alone programs that talk to the backend, over to hosted applications that run directly from the backend. IE large companies are moving to web-portal hosted applications. A perfect example of this for very entrenched business software is the mass migration from SAGE to Salesforce.
            One of the most attractive reasons for doing this, is the removal of compatibility issues. IE no need to worry what OS the end user is running.

            Content creation is one of the last fronts that is has yet to fully make a large move into hosted setups, but this is happening, just not at the same speed as basic business applications.

            Im afraid that you dont actually understand the full scope of the big picture.

          2. LOL, first off, lets not bring the work fanboy into the discussion. You
            instantly turn the discussion into an argument when you do that, and it
            makes you look emotionally invested.

            Nope, just calling like it is… don’t want the word brought up then don’t use fanboy logic arguments then…

            Facts are Chrome OS is really only getting a foothold in schools and the reason isn’t because it’s such a great OS for learning but because it’s low maintenance and can run on cheap hardware… So any argument trying to suggest it can be more than that and that the Cloud is already ready to take over professional usages is simply not true at this stage and that should be made abundantly clear as it does no one any service to misconstrue what these products can actually offer.

            It’s like when people first got netbooks, a lot returned them because they found out the hard way that they wouldn’t serve their needs… Neither the cloud or Chromebooks are at the stage it can fill everyone’s needs, plain and simple!

            Second, we are discussing the use of ChromeOS in Schools. Switching the
            argument over to Business needs is, well its changing the discussion to
            suit your point.

            Nope, it’s just bringing the discussion to the obvious point… We send our kids to school to learn things like how to make a living once they graduate… It really serves no purpose to deny that this is already a problem with how badly our schools are performing already and leaning on technology to fix the problem is like throwing more money on it… it won’t fix it because it doesn’t address what’s actually wrong with the system.

            While learning job skills obviously brings up the point there are people who go to school, especially colleges, specifically to learn advance skill sets so they can get better jobs.

            Even some things like theoretical physics, which may require super computer time isn’t going to be served by what can be offered on Chromebooks and the Cloud right now…

            The entirety of what people do in school isn’t limited to just taking notes, writing papers, and making presentations…

            Really, it’s clear you’re enthusiastic about the potential but the hard cold reality of the situation is that we’re still over a decade from most of what you’re thinking from becoming a reality…

            The infrastructure requirements alone are over a decade away, let alone getting more and more businesses to make the switch and actually rely on cloud technology is definitely not going to happen quickly either.

            So sorry but the big picture is like many things we want to happen, like Fusion power, it’s long term and not short term and it will take as long as it takes, whether we want it done faster or not will not change this…

          3. Im not sure what you think Im saying that is FANBOY based. Im giving you facts about cloud computing, and you are saying nope, without actually giving facts in return. But since I have an opinion that is different than yours with facts to back it, then I must be a fanboy.

            Explosive growth in both SaaS and IaaS both point to the fact that businesses are already moving their infrastructure towards this paradigm.
            So Im not telling you that its getting ready to take over business, Im telling you that it already is taking over.

            See, maybe you are just confused. ChomeOS is just an example of what I am talking about here. Im not saying ChromeOS is taking over, Im saying Cloud Computing is taking over. Im not saying that because Im a fan of it, Im saying that because it is simply the truth.

            There are other misconceptions that you also seem to have, and also contradictions to your argument. First you were saying that cloud computing is basically just a niche thing right now. I proved that wrong, and you start listing off niche use models that will never work with cloud computing. So which is it? Is cloud computing only for niche markets or will cloud computing only handle normal usage but never some niche usage.

            I can tell you that some things like access to supercomputers for theoretical physics (btw this is super niche) is already being farmed out through the cloud, and it has actually increased the ability for some markets to have access. Hell, here is an article from Ars on this subject back in 2012. https://arstechnica.com/business/2012/05/amazons-hpc-cloud-supercomputing-for-the-99/
            There is nothing stopping you from doing this on ChromeOS or any other system for that matter.
            Again your argument does not hold water.

            None of your “bad school system” argument has anything to do with whats being discussed.

          4. No, you’re giving me your interpretation… You’re interpreting the state of cloud computing to be much further along than it actually is and suggesting progress is equivalent to it already taking over and being a viable replacement for traditional computing.

            It’s like mobile devices, they’re becoming a increasing larger part of our daily lives but we’re still a long way before we can replace traditional PC’s completely with them…

            Most of the Cloud advances has been for mobile as well and many other examples, like Office 365 aren’t in most people’s budgets… The costs have to come down for them as well as the devices we access them from before it really becomes practical for most people…

            While the “free” services may have improved but are still very limited…

            And sorry, but everything stated is relevant… Look up studies like how laptops are distracting students, causing lower grades, etc. along with how badly we rank compared to other countries in pretty much all major study fields…

            Like it or not, when discussing schools we have to look at both the benefits and pitfalls of technology to see whether we’re applying the technology effectively or not…

            Btw, the Ars article isn’t about creating a super computer with Chrome… Obviously you never had to get time on a super computer at a university… Many create their own because there’s already too much demand…

            You also miss that cloud computing lags the traditional super computers… Sorry, but physical connections in close proximity trumps exchanging data over the cloud… Sure, you can potential network more computers over the cloud for more total computing power but again the infrastructure isn’t there yet and that’s not even addressing the times when something like one of the main lines crossing the ocean gets cut and it takes literally weeks to fix it… potentially leaving entire nations cut off…

            I could go on and on, because there really are lots holding it back… You really have to stop just looking at only the potential benefits and really address why it hasn’t already progressed far faster…

          5. Just getting a foothold? I work in the ed tech industry, and I can assure you chromebooks are far beyond having a mere “foothold”. They are becoming dominant.

          6. Sure, in Education but in terms of the whole market… it’s a very different story…

            6-7% of the PC market is not becoming dominant and that’s mainly in the US… in 2013 Chromebooks only represented about 1% of the world market… Even Gartner, which IMO tends to oversell their predictions, doesn’t expect a significant growth until about 2017 to nearly triple what it is now, which is their most recent prediction, but that will still be a relatively small percentage of the total market…

            While the reason Chromebooks are doing well in the Education market is pretty obvious due to low cost and low maintenance… but long term it remains to be seen whether they can properly serve the needs of education…

            A analogy would be something like microwave ovens… Useful, gets the job done, easy to use and replace when needed but that doesn’t mean you want it to be your only way of cooking.

            Chromebooks have their place, but the argument here is whether what they can offer can really properly cover all the needs (not just the basic needs), and future needs, or not… and whether or not we can’t do better… as the easy and quick solution isn’t always the best solution… or whether we shouldn’t be promoting a combination solution as all solutions have their own strengths and weaknesses to consider…

            What we have to avoid is assuming everything is solved already when that’s clearly not the case…

      3. Of course GNU/Linux distros are a better choice, and GPL is a much ¡better EULA (and can be installed at Chromebooks with Crouton).

        Also Edubuntu forks as Lliurex (Valencia Spain where I do live an we are a little more than 4 Million people) are the “de facto” standard at many GNU/Linux UEuropean schools systems – Here they add a KX Studio fork for music studies -.

        But Chrome OS is a Pareto optimum, at USA market where there is almost no budget pressure to make GNU/Linux the schools systems standard plus almost no big company with pre installed GNU/Linux affordable (Chromebook hardware alike would be great) machines.

        1. Sure, crouton makes it far easier and brings more opportunities to introduce users to desktop Linux but if history is any lesson then the likelihood of this happening for any significant number of people is unlikely…

          Take Apple, for awhile they were the defacto standard for teaching graphic artist and video editors… Many schools still use them to this day but it hasn’t effected the overall market share of OSX… Apple even almost went bankrupt in the 90’s and it took a reworking of their business with ipods and then iOS devices to make them what they are today…

          Problem with Chromebooks is the benefits lock most users into using it as is… Plus limited hardware limits options and the FW is locked down on many Chromebooks… The developers mode only allows for a certain amount of flexibility but not total freedom…

          Anyway, the discussion is about whether the cloud can offer everything needed from the bottom to top for every school need up to and through college…

          The need for options like GNU/Linus is just one of many examples showing it’s not ready yet…

    2. you know…it’s not the device OS that really concerns me. they all collect data to “improve their product”…my concerns were with the software loaded locally to track and access the device…track and log web activity…ect…ect.

      ultimately i wouldn’t let the device on my network.

      1. What are you talking about? You are saying chromebooks install software on your network???

        1. no.

          a device provided by my kids school had some wacky security suite installed at the school level. (this was even before the whole “omg! some yuck monkey at the school can turn on the webcam while my daughter is (fill in the blanks) in her bedroom” freak out…

          that device was…after a short while…was denided access to my home network.

          1. Was that device running chrome OS?

            I believed it shouldn’t be possible to silently install something like that, unless they switch to developer mode (which gives 30sec sad face on boot), even “all your data on all site” Chrome extensions would require the *user* to install them. But I’m wrong: when users are from a custom domain (not @gmail.com), the domain admin can force install apps & extensions: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6306504 🙁

          2. ok…it was a windows 7 netbook. the school district IT department installed a security suite that allowed remote access to the device pretty much from anywhere. the device’s security suite would “phone home” when it joined a network allowing a level of remote access that i did not like. (and yes a eula was provided by the school district that in itself was very sketchy…but i always felt that it was written by folks that were not very savvy advised by the software developer)

            this was like 2009…so an eternity in tech years.

    3. How about a Pi-top? Perfect choice I would say. With more orders even the current price would go down to probably 150 bucks.

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